Well a customer with a Zchip that dyno'd 335whp @ TTP took the car to BVP to redyno.. The customer was in shock when he found out the car baselined at 292whp.. They pulled off the zchip just to see what the gains actually were and it was in the ~270 range w/o the zchip.. With the MBC only it was 286whp..

Jestr then pulled the Zchip off the car and did a custom tune and made 327whp on a BONE STOCK Evo X..

All info stated here can be verified by Jestr and the customer who was there during the entire process..

You guys with the Zchip should take the time and dyno you car at a 3rd party dyno just see where you actually stand.. The zchip pricepoint is very good at 399.00 but it should gain +35whp minimum IMO to be worth it.. Afterall it was claimed to be 107whp initially..



http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo279/awdmotorsports/dynorun01.jpg

Im not surprised at all by these results.

wow. i knew there was something going on with that

Man word gets around on this . I was actually there from start to finish , the guy was not happy . He had a dyno sheet for 333hp when he saw that first pull at just 286hp with the z-chip he was not happy at all . He later was told that maybe his chip had "gone bad" but the customer after driving the car for a few hours told me later that night that the car NEVER felt so good , I was actually riding shotgun later that night to our local meet . Also keep inmind this customer is a tech at a local highend BMW dealer and after clearly seeing the facts was very displeased with things .

id be pissed. didnt you call this dude out a while back man? peeps should have listened

id be pissed. didnt you call this dude out a while back man? peeps should have listened

This is not the 1st car but its the 1st that i can say i have concrete evidence from people who i trust that i know did not rig the test.. So i figured i would give a heads up to the community that is considering buy the chip..

i was actually asking xtreme. either way real good info and hopefully people will stop wasting their money on his crap

custom tune thats the only way to go

I am a happy ZChip customer myself. Reading this I can't help but wonder why competing vendors that are not ZChip dealers are the ones posting this kind of material here. If the customer had something to say, I'm sure they are able bodied beings.

If you read Mike@AWDMotorsports posting history, over half of everything he has ever posted has been bashing Zeitronix, the ZChip and TTP-Engineering.

I just wonder if there is a purpose of these people with a smear campaign besides bashing products.

I joined this site to share information and experiences of my first hand vehicle and enjoy reading other members firsthand accounts of Evo X related info.

It makes me sick when I see these negative slander campaigns by other "vendors" whose sole purpose appears to be to bash products and services that they do not sell themselves.

BVP- EcuTeK tuner Gadiel as listed on the BVP decal
Jestr- ZChip Competing reflash services
Xtremeboost- I read a whole trashed thread of this vendor fighting with TTP so an ill will intent precedes anything negative I read about their company vs. TTP.
AWDMotorsports- has more than half their post here dedicated to bashing of ZChip and TTP-Engineering. He also has slanderous videos about other companies on youtube under his screen name and has conspired with Dynoflash to post other anti-ZChip mocking videos under the Dynoflash youtube account. Dynoflash is another EcuTeK tuner.

So with all of this information I have read from various forums and videos I have seen, I am willing to bet that they purposely screwed with the ZChip mapping, pulled the tach wire loose to break connectivity or adjust the dyno brake figures purposely to negative sell this propoganda.

This third party account vendor on vendor bashing campaign is complete crap if you ask me.

I've sat back and lurked for quite some time and it takes a lot to rattle my cage, but this thread is a major disappointment to read this vendor propoganda and for once, I would like to step up and call it as I see it.

From the "Jestr" dynosheet alone, the car appears to be detonating from 49mph all the way through 60mph.

Valid point tsi, but i have yet to see zchip dyno done by another shop besides TTP and their ultra high reading dyno.

I am a happy ZChip customer myself. Reading this I can't help but wonder why competing vendors that are not ZChip dealers are the ones posting this kind of material here. If the customer had something to say, I'm sure they are able bodied beings.

If you read Mike@AWDMotorsports posting history, over half of everything he has ever posted has been bashing Zeitronix, the ZChip and TTP-Engineering.

I just wonder if there is a purpose of these people with a smear campaign besides bashing products.

I joined this site to share information and experiences of my first hand vehicle and enjoy reading other members firsthand accounts of Evo X related info.

It makes me sick when I see these negative slander campaigns by other "vendors" whose sole purpose appears to be to bash products and services that they do not sell themselves.

BVP- EcuTeK tuner Gadiel as listed on the BVP decal
Jestr- ZChip Competing reflash services
Xtremeboost- I read a whole trashed thread of this vendor fighting with TTP so an ill will intent precedes anything negative I read about their company vs. TTP.
AWDMotorsports- has more than half their post here dedicated to bashing of ZChip and TTP-Engineering. He also has slanderous videos about other companies on youtube under his screen name and has conspired with Dynoflash to post other anti-ZChip mocking videos under the Dynoflash youtube account. Dynoflash is another EcuTeK tuner.

So with all of this information I have read from various forums and videos I have seen, I am willing to bet that they purposely screwed with the ZChip mapping, pulled the tach wire loose to break connectivity or adjust the dyno brake figures purposely to negative sell this propoganda.

This third party account vendor on vendor bashing campaign is complete crap if you ask me.

I've sat back and lurked for quite some time and it takes a lot to rattle my cage, but this thread is a major disappointment to read this vendor propoganda and for once, I would like to step up and call it as I see it.


Just remember 1 thing TTP is not my competition.. My shop is 3hrs away.. More than 1/2 my posts on EVOm are not bashing TTP.. so take your misinformation somewhere else.. i have 3200 posts on evom.. find me 1600 bashing posts and ill pay you 1.00 for every one of them via paypal..

Trust me when i tell you that TTP is not my competition.. the fastest car they ever built went 10.9 on nitrous and blew up 2x.. We have run 8's and 9's in several cars.. matter of fact a customer of our went 10.80 last night.. That is quicker than any car TTP ever built.. Thanks for your feedback though..

Just remember 1 thing TTP is not my competition.. My shop is 3hrs away.. More than 1/2 my posts on EVOm are not bashing TTP.. so take your misinformation somewhere else.. i have 3200 posts on evom.. find me 1600 bashing posts and ill pay you 1.00 for every one of them via paypal..

Trust me when i tell you that TTP is not my competition.. the fastest car they ever built went 10.9 on nitrous and blew up 2x.. We have run 8's and 9's in several cars.. matter of fact a customer of our went 10.80 last night.. Thanks for your feedback though..

They are your direct competition. They just posted that they tuned another Evo X from Miami on Friday. According to google maps, Miami is 4 hours away from them and 1 hour south of you.

Here is the pic they posted:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/dsm95hybrid/alan_front_shot.jpg

If you are not their direct competition, then why must you feel the need to consistantly make videos about them in a negative slander campaign.

I have been dealing with them for months now and they have been nothing but excellent to me as a customer. Their feedback speaks for itself on evom.

We are not talking about evom, this is evoxforums and almost all of your posts are bashing your competition. Is there anything positive that your company has to offer or is your entire marketing strategy to bash every company or product you do not sell?

The only idiots building 8 second cars are the ones that will be out of business in the next few months. Maintaining such a racecar is high maintenance and high cost and we are not in the right state of economy to expect shops or ourselves as customers to be spending that kind of money on a dedicated drag only racecar. Sean Ivey, Buschur and Scorke have said it themselves.

The smart shops are the ones building daily drivers with full interiors that their customers can easily duplicate and on a normal customers budget and still get to work on Monday morning. This is why TTP has so many happy customers like myself. I can put myself in their mods list with my income level and see what it takes to acheive that performance on an affordable budget.

TTP has never blown an engine. They have changed parts as mods progressed as any smart modder would. You don't go out and try for 650whp on a stock motor, you don't run 9000rpms on stock valve springs. It makes perfect sense to me.

What I do appreciate about your posting however is showing the forum the integrity your company has to be unfocused on your own advances in the Evo X market, but instead are focused on bashing other companies instead.

This is why I will never send one dollar to your company.

While we are on the subject of postive breakthroughs in Evo X performance, last I heard is that TTP went 12.02 @ 113+mph full weight wednesday on stock fmic stock tires and wheels, stock IC pipes, stock intake, stock catback, stock bov, stock cams, stock o2 housing and on and on.

With your stage III EVO X buschur build complete with modifications made to every part that TTP uses stock parts for, with a custom dynoflash you could only manage 12.5 @ 109 as seen in Evo shootout videos on youtube.

My advice is to focus on your positive contributions to the community and the rest will work itself out on its own. Your slander propaganda just makes you look threatened by your competition.

I am a happy ZChip customer myself. Reading this I can't help but wonder why competing vendors that are not ZChip dealers are the ones posting this kind of material here. If the customer had something to say, I'm sure they are able bodied beings.

If you read Mike@AWDMotorsports posting history, over half of everything he has ever posted has been bashing Zeitronix, the ZChip and TTP-Engineering.

I just wonder if there is a purpose of these people with a smear campaign besides bashing products.

I joined this site to share information and experiences of my first hand vehicle and enjoy reading other members firsthand accounts of Evo X related info.

It makes me sick when I see these negative slander campaigns by other "vendors" whose sole purpose appears to be to bash products and services that they do not sell themselves.

BVP- EcuTeK tuner Gadiel as listed on the BVP decal
Jestr- ZChip Competing reflash services
Xtremeboost- I read a whole trashed thread of this vendor fighting with TTP so an ill will intent precedes anything negative I read about their company vs. TTP.
AWDMotorsports- has more than half their post here dedicated to bashing of ZChip and TTP-Engineering. He also has slanderous videos about other companies on youtube under his screen name and has conspired with Dynoflash to post other anti-ZChip mocking videos under the Dynoflash youtube account. Dynoflash is another EcuTeK tuner.

So with all of this information I have read from various forums and videos I have seen, I am willing to bet that they purposely screwed with the ZChip mapping, pulled the tach wire loose to break connectivity or adjust the dyno brake figures purposely to negative sell this propoganda.

This third party account vendor on vendor bashing campaign is complete crap if you ask me.

I've sat back and lurked for quite some time and it takes a lot to rattle my cage, but this thread is a major disappointment to read this vendor propoganda and for once, I would like to step up and call it as I see it.

From the "Jestr" dynosheet alone, the car appears to be detonating from 49mph all the way through 60mph.



With all due respect sir , their is ZERO bashing in anyones part !! This was a customer that wanted to retune his car and ONLY the 100% facts have been posted on this matter nothing more nothing less . And sorry to tell you but ZERO detonation was taking place ! Lets keep this thread free and clear of any BS - Mike just posted some facts he came across , I will NOT get into any sort of BS over this with anyone , this is childlish BS ! If you are happy thats fine, this guy was NOT - I do believe its still a free country for people to disagree on things right ? This guy is not happy and took it out retuned and now is feeling for the FIRST time his car making actual power !! Here is how it goes down


Customer contacts ME Via PM

I reply

Customer says I'm having some small issues and I want this thing out !

I reply

Customer says I need to get in a.s.a.p for a flash like you ( like I ) have !

I reply and set-up a tune with Jestr .

Customer is with us at the dyno , we place his car on the dyno WITHOUT touching ANYTHING ( in-fact the customer is helping out with getting things set-up ) - NOTE: customer is a BMW Tech- not some 16 year old kid !

The dyno run is made with the customer watching at ALL times


Thats how it went down , nothing less nothing more !!!




...

We dont even tune the evo X here so again they are NOT my competition at all.. My shop is full of 8's and 9's that we are doing complete builds on and staged upgrades.. you cant call someone competition when they arent even in the same league.. Ive been doing this only 1 year and have already excelled far past what TTP has ever done with any car.. I love the pictures TTP posts of the constant full shop of cars yet its the same cars in the same position.. hahaha.. The overhead TTP has will sink the ship in time because i know for a fact the shop is not busy and is based on dyno lies and no track times..

We just built a true daily driver that ran 9.75 last night and a bolt on evo that ran 10.80.. wow 2 cars that are faster than anything TTP EVER built.. what a joke..


Btw.. TTP has never blown any car?? Now thats the best joke i have heard since TTP claimed his dyno drag racing was 100% accurate.. hahaha


also, i know its you scott.. you are the only person who keeps posting that we ran 12.5 with my car but it was a 12.3 on a slipping stock clutch.. well run 11's next week.. take care scotty..

With all due repect sir , their is ZERO bashing in anyones part !! This was a customer that wanted to retune his car and ONLY the 100% facts have been posted on this matter nothing more nothing less . And sorry to tell you but ZERO detonation was taking place ! Lets keep this thread free and clear of any BS - Mike just posted some facts he came across , I will NOT get into any sort of BS over this with anyone , this is childlish BS ! If you are happy thats fine, this guy was NOT - I do believe its still a free country for people to disagree on things right ? This guy is not happy and took it out retuned and now is feeling for the FIRST time his car making actual power !! Here is how it goes down


Customer contacts ME Via PM

I reply

Customer says I'm having some small issues and I want this thing out !

I reply

Customer says I need to get in a.s.a.p for a flash like you ( like I ) have !

I reply and set-up a tune with Jestr .

Customer is with us at the dyno , we place his car on the dyno WITHOUT touching ANYTHING ( in-fact the customer is helping out with getting things set-up ) - NOTE: customer is a BMW Tech- not some 16 year old kid !

The dyno run is made with the customer watching at ALL times


Thats how it went down , nothijg less nothing more !!!




...
It is not a vendors job to post potentially negative accounts on their own. If their is truly a real customer that is unhappy about their product or results, it is their perogative to contact whoever they need to. If they feel compelled to leave a review, it is up to them, not a competing vendor with a vested interest in making their product look bad.

Being that other vendors are posting negative information about a "customer" experience it makes it look like there is ill-will involved and much to gain by bashing the competitor's products.

For this reason I see both of your posts as tools to try and damage TTP's perfect reputation within the community.

This kind of propaganda is much like a vendor posting a positive review thread praising themselves like we have seen awdmotorsports do countless times. It lacks taste and builds no trust and value in the community. There is no place for self reviews and third party negative sales.

Save that garbage for your bathroom mirror in the morning when you're doing your hair and telling yourself how handsome you are.

btw.. its also on youtube..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-7OWt2Syq4

It is not a vendors job to post potentially negative accounts on their own. If their is truly a real customer that is unhappy about their product or results, it is their perogative to contact whoever they need to. If they feel compelled to leave a review, it is up to them, not a competing vendor with a vested interest in making their product look bad.

Being that other vendors are posting negative information about a "customer" experience it makes it look like there is ill-will involved and much to gain by bashing the competitor's products.

For this reason I see both of your posts as tools to try and damage TTP's perfect reputation within the community.

This kind of propaganda is much like a vendor posting a positive review thread praising themselves like we have seen awdmotorsports do countless times. It lacks taste and builds no trust and value in the community. There is no place for self reviews and third party negative sales.

Save that garbage for your bathroom mirror in the morning when you're doing your hair and telling yourself how handsome you are.

who is WE?? oh i forgot scott you always like to post WE instead of I meaning WE at TTP.. might as well man up and log in under your own name.. no customer is going to go bat for TTP like you have in this thread so its obvious.. come out and post under your name and explain how it is that the car dynos 292whp on a dynojet when the MD is supposed to read lower as per the dyno parasitic calibrations for this week..

It is not a vendors job to post potentially negative accounts on their own. If their is truly a real customer that is unhappy about their product or results, it is their perogative to contact whoever they need to. If they feel compelled to leave a review, it is up to them, not a competing vendor with a vested interest in making their product look bad.

Being that other vendors are posting negative information about a "customer" experience it makes it look like there is ill-will involved and much to gain by bashing the competitor's products.

For this reason I see both of your posts as tools to try and damage TTP's perfect reputation within the community.

This kind of propaganda is much like a vendor posting a positive review thread praising themselves like we have seen awdmotorsports do countless times. It lacks taste and builds no trust and value in the community. There is no place for self reviews and third party negative sales.

Save that garbage for your bathroom mirror in the morning when you're doing your hair and telling yourself how handsome you are.



The product is MADE and BUILT by Zetronic ( or however its spelled ) and NOT TTP !!! So therefore not one person is bashing another vendor on this or anyother forum !!! Those are 100% facts there as well . And yes I do agree that vendor bashing is ill and I speak for MYSELf when I say that I'm at complete odds with the Z-chip which is Made and Built by Zetronics !! This will be my last post on this matter .



..

We dont even tune the evo X here so again they are NOT my competition at all.. My shop is full of 8's and 9's that we are doing complete builds on and staged upgrades.. you cant call someone competition when they arent even in the same league.. Ive been doing this only 1 year and have already excelled far past what TTP has ever done with any car.. I love the pictures TTP posts of the constant full shop of cars yet its the same cars in the same position.. hahaha.. The overhead TTP has will sink the ship in time because i know for a fact the shop is not busy and is based on dyno lies and no track times..


You have not excelled past anything according to your feedback ratings, you have a long way to go. You can read between the lines in your posts on evom the jealousy you have for their company. This of course comes in between your Buschur Ego stroking posts.

We just built a true daily driver that ran 9.75 last night and a bolt on evo that ran 10.80.. wow 2 cars that are faster than anything TTP EVER built.. what a joke..

You have an employee car with a Buschur buildup? I'll be sure to congratulate David Buschur for sending you all the parts to bolt together as there is nothing you guys build yourself and that is common knowledge according to this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKNnWboMgGM&feature=channel_page

Btw.. TTP has never blown any car?? Now thats the best joke i have heard since TTP claimed his dyno drag racing was 100% accurate.. hahaha
According to their last video, their shop X went 11.83 and 12.00 with a 1.75 and 1.90 60' on the dyno runs and at the track it ran 12.02 and 12.09 with a 1.69 and 1.75 60'. How is that not right on the money?

also, i know its you scott.. you are the only person who keeps posting that we ran 12.5 with my car but it was a 12.3 on a slipping stock clutch.. well run 11's next week.. take care scotty..
This is not Scott for your info buddy. Your track runs at 12.5 are on youtube from the Evo shootout in Florida. Unless the videos somehow are showing the wrong times, that is what they say on the timeclocks.

You continue to make yourself look worse with every post. Excellent work AWD.

Im not going to argue anymore either.. this was just posted to make the consumers aware of the zchip not making the advertised power it should on this particular car..

Have a nice night scott.. you are just trying to destroy the thread so it will get deleted.. with as many people that watch our youtube it will be seen no matter what.. Lies will always catch up with you in the end.. night night..

who is WE?? oh i forgot scott you always like to post WE instead of I meaning WE at TTP.. might as well man up and log in under your own name.. no customer is going to go bat for TTP like you have in this thread so its obvious.. come out and post under your name and explain how it is that the car dynos 292whp on a dynojet when the MD is supposed to read lower as per the dyno parasitic calibrations for this week..
We as in the forum members as readers. I have never seen such cockiness from a "vendor" in my entire life.

When I purchased my ZChip months ago, the information that was listed on their thread was that the stock Evo X dynoed 252whp on their dyno. We are not sure where 292whp is coming from. I read a post of yours on evom that stated that stock Evo X's put down around 250whp on your Dynojet and its the same model as BVP according to their site.

As far as sticking up for what I believe in, yes I will stand up for myself as well as the other ZChip owners that you and extremeboost are trying to alienate with this bullcrap thread. I am sure I speak for many other members "we" did not sign up to be a member of this site to read this propaganda BS from vendors trying to smear another product in the marketplace.

If you have something to offer, offer it and its merits will speak for themselves. If you have nothing to offer this site in terms of positive helpful information, I would rather not be subject to your negative anti-competition posting behavior.

My experience with the ZChip and the vendor I bought it from has been 100% positive and the difference in performance has been night and day from the time I plugged it in.

I suppose the video posted on the zchip site was in response to vendor bashing from your company. Big {thumbdown} to your company.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iQX4fdDDY0

We as in the forum members as readers. I have never seen such cockiness from a "vendor" in my entire life.

When I purchased my ZChip months ago, the information that was listed on their thread was that the stock Evo X dynoed 252whp on their dyno. We are not sure where 292whp is coming from. I read a post of yours on evom that stated that stock Evo X's put down around 250whp on your Dynojet and its the same model as BVP according to their site.

As far as sticking up for what I believe in, yes I will stand up for myself as well as the other ZChip owners that you and extremeboost are trying to alienate with this bullcrap thread.

My experience with the ZChip and the vendor I bought it from has been 100% positive and the difference in performance has been night and day from the time I plugged it in.


Glad you are satisifed with it.. :thumbup:

I really don't care either way any of the companies tune for I'm going with the AP but I do no that on evom TTP claimed high numbers and a fast E.T. of 116 in forth gear. That just sounds funny to me because the Z-chip can't adjust the Rpm and they have ECUTECH there and that program can adjust the RPM, and they are advertiseing this as the Z-chip which why people don't trust TTP any person with knowlege of tunning knows this, and When I lived in Orlando I heard many bad things about TTP sorry to stomp on your Party and no I don't work or live any where around TTP I live on the other side of the country now so don't go off saying i'm bashing them because I think poeple should no that Z-chip vendors will lie and tell you anything to get that shit on the market. Just my .02:amen:

Someone needs a nap.
While we are on the subject of postive breakthroughs in Evo X performance, last I heard is that TTP went 12.02 @ 113+mph full weight wednesday on stock fmic stock tires and wheels, stock IC pipes, stock intake, stock catback, stock bov, stock cams, stock o2 housing and on and on. Seems your "facts" are lacking here. Kindly refer to this post quote from evom by
TTP Engineering at Jan 9, 2009, 03:32 PM:

"Our FIRST trip to the track was 12.7 @ 107.42mph BONE STOCK with MBC/ZCHIP

Our SECOND trip to the track was 12.02 @ 112.70mph with TTP testpipe, Forge WGA, high boost (28-33) on 93 octane with water injection to cool the intake charge at full weight."

So that wasn't exactly a stock exhaust with a test pipe. And it also has water injection - not a stock option afaik.

That same thread also brought up an interesting question on how the dyno 1/4 mile run allowed the car to get to 116 MPH while still in 4th gear but that's a different subject.

Back to my nap.

Can't you see through the smoke and see TTP is not telling the truth about what there products do!!

Thanks for the heads up AWD and xtreme boost. I never planned on buying this chip, but for those that considered it an option they are now more informed. The z-chip reminds me off the magic black box chips on ebay that advertise a 50 hp increase for $6. I' am sure it does increase the performance of the vehicle, but not to the extent that they claim with what they claim. For $399 it maybe worth the increase, but it seems it will run into wall when more control is needed over the ecu.

god I wish one of the magazines would do a comparison so we can have a 3rd party review of the tuning products.

as for TTP as a company ... on EvoM their threads almost always seem to turn into them being condescending to potential buyers. I never understood that aspect of their "customer service" ...
customer service doesn't mean you only threat people with respect AFTER they buy your product ... but also BEFORE lol

Someone needs a nap.
Seems your "facts" are lacking here. Kindly refer to this post quote from evom by
TTP Engineering at Jan 9, 2009, 03:32 PM:

"Our FIRST trip to the track was 12.7 @ 107.42mph BONE STOCK with MBC/ZCHIP

Our SECOND trip to the track was 12.02 @ 112.70mph with TTP testpipe, Forge WGA, high boost (28-33) on 93 octane with water injection to cool the intake charge at full weight."

So that wasn't exactly a stock exhaust with a test pipe. And it also has water injection - not a stock option afaik.

That same thread also brought up an interesting question on how the dyno 1/4 mile run allowed the car to get to 116 MPH while still in 4th gear but that's a different subject.

Back to my nap.


Just my personal opinion but i highly doubt its just water injection and not meth injection.. The cat was seen shooting flames non stop on the streets but at the track it was just water injection.. I personally dont buy into that..

god I wish one of the magazines would do a comparison so we can have a 3rd party review of the tuning products.

as for TTP as a company ... on EvoM their threads almost always seem to turn into them being condescending to potential buyers. I never understood that aspect of their "customer service" ...
customer service doesn't mean you only threat people with respect AFTER they buy your product ... but also BEFORE lol


Lets please NOT turn this into an I hate TTP thread !!! This thread is on the product which Zetronic designed and makes please leave all hate BS out of this , Zetronic and TTP are two seperate companies and should be viewed as such . This thread was made by Mike I guess to help inform people that the product is not all thats been advertised and he's just passing along the findings we had . Talking about the Z-chip in a nagative way is no differeant than talking about those goofy E-bay "power chips" , if a 3rd party company puts out a product and the product is flawed then its our right to report to anyone we like the results of our testing . Fact ramains that no Z-chip car has gone faster than 12.7 which is not that bad . Please no more direct bashing of TTP !


..

A few points.

-I've seen this type of thing before in automotive communities. Several shops independently have issues with a competitor's product. Then, someone comes along and dismisses anything the competing shops have to say solely because they are competition and are "obviously just out to bash them" because of that.

The obvious thing that's being overlooked there is that there is a reason that several competitors all focus on one company or product. For instance, in this case, no one made everyone go after TTP...they all chose to on their own. What made them all choose TTP? Why didn't Jestr target Big Al who targeted PERRIN and so on? My point here is that you simply can't dismiss what a company is saying about their competition simply because they're competition. Quite often, they have valid points. Other times, they're just talking smack to try to make their stuff look better. It's up to you to decide which type of case this is.

-Accusing anyone who defends TTP to be Scott@TTP is amusing. While sometimes it may be the case, jumping to that conclusion will just make you look silly when you're wrong.

That said, the message from AWDMotorsports is food for thought, but the problem is that it's a he said/she said game. There's literally no end to the nonsense.

If the TTP tuned car puts out low power on another dyno, it's "because the guys at that shop tampered with it.", which can't be proven by TTP or defended by the dyno shop.

So all we have to go on here are accusations from either side of the equation and nothing solid to go off of. Even if a "3rd party" did independent testing on this issue, the company who "lost" the battle would simply claim that the test conductor and the winner were in cahoots. Due to the nature of these types of battles, it will probably never end.

However, if and when that day does come, I will gladly allow it to be discussed here. Until then, while I'm just as curious as everyone else (and I have my own opinions on the matter), I think we need to quit while we're ahead. Things are starting to get a little out of hand in this thread already, and they're not going to get better anytime soon.

Let's just drop this for now and hopefully as time passes we'll have some indisputable evidence.