Ok guys, here is my yesterday`s headache...

So me and meat_evo did some bolt-ons on my car last sunday - put his ported and polished turbo (he got an fp red), the new atp divorced downpipe, sc tespipe and forge bov...
The car was a lot faster in the hight rpm to the redline...
Anyway, yesterday i went to a friend of his (All Aspects Motorsports) to dyno the car on a DynoJet.
The piece of crap made 12psi boost and 228hp. We tried a couple of pulls but the stock boost solenoid did not want to let it make more.
I have been running AP since half an year and i have been happy with it. Now i run the stage 2 AMS 93 and it seemed to be ok.
It turned out that all this time i have been making crappy boost.
We looked at the hoses aroud there - everything was fine. The problem was in the stock solenoid. We threw an MBC in and in 5mins i was pushing over 100hp more at 24.5 psi...
However, since i read boost thru the AP for now (was waiting for a tune in the fall), we decided to run stock safe boost and the MBC was set for 21.4 psi with 319hp and 300p/tq.
Now i got grin on my face since my ported turbo spins like sick and i finally realized how slow i was before...
Anyway, my questions is is it safe to run MBC with the AP?
BTW, i am getting boost gauge and uego asap....

PS>. wil post dyno and video after i get back from work..

Ok guys, here is my yesterday`s headache...

So me and meat_evo did some bolt-ons on my car last sunday - put his ported and polished turbo (he got an fp red), the new atp divorced downpipe, sc tespipe and forge bov...
The car was a lot faster in the hight rpm to the redline...
Anyway, yesterday i went to a friend of his (All Aspects Motorsports) to dyno the car on a DynoJet.
The piece of crap made 12psi boost and 228hp. We tried a couple of pulls but the stock boost solenoid did not want to let it make more.
I have been running AP since half an year and i have been happy with it. Now i run the stage 2 AMS 93 and it seemed to be ok.
It turned out that all this time i have been making crappy boost.
We looked at the hoses aroud there - everything was fine. The problem was in the stock solenoid. We threw an MBC in and in 5mins i was pushing over 100hp more at 24.5 psi...
However, since i read boost thru the AP for now (was waiting for a tune in the fall), we decided to run stock safe boost and the MBC was set for 21.4 psi with 319hp and 300p/tq.
Now i got grin on my face since my ported turbo spins like sick and i finally realized how slow i was before...
Anyway, my questions is is it safe to run MBC with the AP. BTW, i am getting boost gauge and uego asap....

PS>. wil post dyno and video after i get back from work..

awesome, doesn't it feel great when you know for a fact something is wrong and then you figure it out and get it fixed.

I am happy for you!

very nice...another VA X too!

The boost reading for many gauges uses the ECU for its numbers, so that is fine. Adding in an additional sensor for boost is an option that many choose to go for as well since you can change the actual amount it reads as well as ensure they are getting the numbers and readings they want instead of hoping the ECU is correct.

On a side note I am really surprised that the ECU was allowing it to run at such low boost. Im wondering if it was putting it in some lower boost cells because it was hitting errors or something. Since ECU's are all math algorythms, perhaps all of your upgrades and changes were changing what it was expecting and you will need a custom tune in order for it to correctly calculate the amount of boost required.

It may be safe, but it is not fixing the problem. Something is still wrong because you should not use a MBC with an AP. I use the same dyno and make 330whp and 349ftlb w/stage 2. Check all vacum lines, use nylon cable clamps anywhere you don't see one. If I can help let me know I'm in Va. beach.

without logging you can never be sure if your getting knock. i was at all-aspects yesterday and everything looked good on the runs. the car didn't appear to have any timing pulled. when i got home and checked my logs from evoscan i saw knock at the top end that needs to be removed asap to be safe. less go fast parts more wideband and logging imo.

It may be safe, but it is not fixing the problem. Something is still wrong because you should not use a MBC with an AP. I use the same dyno and make 330whp and 349ftlb w/stage 2. Check all vacum lines, use nylon cable clamps anywhere you don't see one. If I can help let me know I'm in Va. beach.
what are your mods

I had this same issue.I would only boost to 11 or 12. I had the boost line upside down. Try swapping the line that goes to your WGA and the line off the outlet of the turbo. you should have a boost pill close to your WGA.

I only make 13lbs from the factory. Working on solution now.

I had this same issue.I would only boost to 11 or 12. I had the boost line upside down. Try swapping the line that goes to your WGA and the line off the outlet of the turbo. you should have a boost pill close to your WGA.

boost pill rem,oved due to running stage 2 ams 93 on ap

boost pill rem,oved due to running stage 2 ams 93 on ap

Which boost pill did you remove? the larger one by the turbo outlet pipe or the one by the solenoid?

If you removed the larger pill by the outlet pipe then you will only get wastegate boost.

The boost reading for many gauges uses the ECU for its numbers, so that is fine. Adding in an additional sensor for boost is an option that many choose to go for as well since you can change the actual amount it reads as well as ensure they are getting the numbers and readings they want instead of hoping the ECU is correct.

Can you post up a boost gauge that gets the reading from the ecu? The ecu uses its MAP sensor to run the car so I would hope that it is pretty accurate.

It sounds like the OP pulled the wrong pill.

I don't see why it would be a problem to run a mbc. As long as it is set to run the same psi as the AP, it should be the same or maybe my logic is off.

you guys are right... me and meat have pulled the wrong pill .
should i put it back (got the hose ready with it inside) and take off the right one or i should not touch anything since i have an MBC now and only AP to monitor the boost?

monitoring boost is just part of it, your a/f is critical to watch when adjusting boost. if you do put the pill in remove the mbc for sure and use AP to make sure your not running to high

I run the AMS Stage 2 93 octane map on my Cobb AP with a MBC set at 26psi. The last data log I ran showed 0.35 knock retard at a couple spots around 3500rpm. 2000-7500rpm log in 4th gear. Works for me.

but do you have any pills removed and f you do, which???

I run the AMS Stage 2 93 octane map on my Cobb AP with a MBC set at 26psi. The last data log I ran showed 0.35 knock retard at a couple spots around 3500rpm. 2000-7500rpm log in 4th gear. Works for me.

I have the entire stock boost control hose assembly removed. I'm running a Hallman MBC.

you guys are right... me and meat have pulled the wrong pill .
should i put it back (got the hose ready with it inside) and take off the right one or i should not touch anything since i have an MBC now and only AP to monitor the boost?

Running the boost off a MBC while using an AP and Cobb map is a very bad idea. There are so many variables to how the ECU controls things you can either rob yourself of power or blow your motor. :freak:

jsut talked to meat.. and he is right..
i am totally safe with 21psi on a stage two ap map set for 26psi!! totally conservative and safe..
will turn it up a little as soon as i get my boost gauge (so far read thru ap)

Running the boost off a MBC while using an AP and Cobb map is a very bad idea. There are so many variables to how the ECU controls things you can either rob yourself of power or blow your motor. :freak:

It may be safe, but it is not fixing the problem. Something is still wrong because....


maybe not.. You guys dynod on different days with different mods. Different humidity, temp.. ect. also, your running 25psi and hes running 21psi and you guys have comparable mods except he has the xtremeboost fmic and you have a HKS fmic. Im sure your fmic made some more power on the dyno then the xtremeboost did, it seemed to perform beter in action then on display (dyno)

also, on 23 psi my car made 340whp.... so looks like we are all in the same ballpark. put inner at 25 psi and i bet it hits 340whp easy.

without logging you can never.....

your in vabeach.. you the guy i meet at freedom?

I run the AMS Stage 2 93 octane map on my Cobb AP with a MBC set at 26psi. The last data log I ran showed 0.35 knock retard at a couple spots around 3500rpm. 2000-7500rpm log in 4th gear. Works for me.


reason your knocking is your running one more psi.. and its holding boost better. you should just turn it down 1psi. i bet you only loose like 5 whp.

Running the boost off a MBC while using an AP and Cobb map is a very bad idea. There are so many variables to how the ECU controls things you can either rob yourself of power or blow your motor. :freak:


hollywood, your scaring the guy.

its fine... espically when hes running 21.4 on a 25psi map. i would turn it to 24psi and call it a day, because its going to hold boost better with less taper so the slight less spike will most likely average out on the top end.

basically, conclusion, Inner is buying boost gauge and wideband and we will be installing a watermeth kit and proabably running 26-27 psi on teh cobb map with watermeth and see what she makes. I bet it will be close to the power i put down. 360-370 whp easy.

wait till he gets tuned. :thumbup:

hollywood, your scaring the guy.

its fine... espically when hes running 21.4 on a 25psi map. i would turn it to 24psi and call it a day, because its going to hold boost better with less taper so the slight less spike will most likely average out on the top end.

basically, conclusion, Inner is buying boost gauge and wideband and we will be installing a watermeth kit and proabably running 26-27 psi on teh cobb map with watermeth and see what she makes. I bet it will be close to the power i put down. 360-370 whp easy.

wait till he gets tuned. :thumbup:

The way our ECU works with load generated from MAF calcs cross referenced and interpolated on several tables once you handicap the ability for it to get actual solid data it will try and compensate for the loss. A manual bleeder in the line will keep from pulling timing in areas it needs to or may even have you run leaner than you should be because it is referencing data from a table that is meant for a different grams per second.

Also how are you using an MBC to lower boost?

The way our ECU works with load generated from MAF calcs cross referenced and interpolated on several tables once you handicap the ability for it to get actual solid data it will try and compensate for the loss. A manual bleeder in the line will keep from pulling timing in areas it needs to or may even have you run leaner than you should be because it is referencing data from a table that is meant for a different grams per second.

ok, whatever you said der.. ok. goes to my lower boost answer

Also how are you using an MBC to lower boost?


and easy, you put a MBC in and set it for 21.4 psi instead of the maps target boost of 25psi.



point being, other users are doing it and are fine. he will be getting tunned in the fall so he will be quite ok.

reason your knocking is your running one more psi.. and its holding boost better. you should just turn it down 1psi. i bet you only loose like 5 whp.
It's not even a half of one full count of knock retard. And that's not actual knock count, it's knock retard, which means the ignition timing was retarded because of what the engine thought could have been knock. To me 2-3 occurances of .35 knock retard is perfectly acceptable and could be any combination of factors causing it (fuel quality, weather, engine load, etc.)

your in vabeach.. you the guy i meet at freedom?

yes i am.

not sure how the access port maps will like enabling mode23 logging but we can run evoscan to see if he's getting any knock.

It's not even a half of one full count of knock retard. And that's not actual knock count, it's knock retard, which means the ignition timing was retarded because of what the engine thought could have been knock. To me 2-3 occurances of .35 knock retard is perfectly acceptable and could be any combination of factors causing it (fuel quality, weather, engine load, etc.)

oh ok. :thumbup: good to know!

yes i am.

not sure how the access port maps will like enabling mode23 logging but we can run evoscan to see if he's getting any knock.


i believe his AP can read knock.

i believe his AP can read knock.

Cobb's site shows knock retard not sure about the actual count.

it's just a suggestion if you ever want to give it a try since i am local.

Fix it properly and put the factory boost solenoid back in with the correct boost pills.

Fix it properly and put the factory boost solenoid back in with the correct boost pills.


MBC holds more stable boost.... why fix it if it aint broken? and right now, it aint broken.

Fix it properly and put the factory boost solenoid back in with the correct boost pills.
I did this last night, put the stock boost hose assembly back in, solenoid pill removed for use with the Cobb stage 2 maps. I went and made a run today. Both runs were with Cobb Stage 2 AMS intake 93 octane map. It was on the exact same spot on the same road and about the same weather as the run with the MBC - mid 70's, early evening, moderate humidity. 4th gear pull 2000-7300. Here's what it came up with:

Hallman MBC - peaked 26.85psi at 2973rpm, dropped to 18.44psi at 7225. Highest IAT was 78.8°, low was 77°. Elapsed time from 2000-7000 was 11.92. 3 occurances of .35 knock retard - two in upper-mid range, one on the top end.

Stock boost control - peaked 27.07psi at 3091rpm, dropped to 18.29 at 7088rpm. Highest IAT was 86°, low was 84.2°. Elapsed time from 2000-7000 was 12.57 seconds. 2 occurances of 0.35 knock retard - one in the mid range, one on the top end.

So basically, the MBC spools the turbo quicker, holds boost longer, and allows for cooler IATs over the stock boost control solenoids. The MBC's run was also slightly quicker, suggesting a little more power and torque from that setup on slightly lower boost.

I'm going to install a MBC right now. Definately the best way to control boost.

I'm going to install a MBC right now. Definately the best way to control boost.


are you being sarcastic? or are you finally seeing that what ive been preaching is the truth!

i just remember people picking up like 15whp on a stock x just by installing a mbc and leaving it at stock boost.

I did this last night, put the stock boost hose assembly back in, solenoid pill removed for use with the Cobb stage 2 maps. I went and made a run today. Both runs were with Cobb Stage 2 AMS intake 93 octane map. It was on the exact same spot on the same road and about the same weather as the run with the MBC - mid 70's, early evening, moderate humidity. 4th gear pull 2000-7300. Here's what it came up with:

Hallman MBC - peaked 26.85psi at 2973rpm, dropped to 18.44psi at 7225. Highest IAT was 78.8°, low was 77°. Elapsed time from 2000-7000 was 11.92. 3 occurances of .35 knock retard - two in upper-mid range, one on the top end.

Stock boost control - peaked 27.07psi at 3091rpm, dropped to 18.29 at 7088rpm. Highest IAT was 86°, low was 84.2°. Elapsed time from 2000-7000 was 12.57 seconds. 2 occurances of 0.35 knock retard - one in the mid range, one on the top end.

So basically, the MBC spools the turbo quicker, holds boost longer, and allows for cooler IATs over the stock boost control solenoids. The MBC's run was also slightly quicker, suggesting a little more power and torque from that setup on slightly lower boost.

that cannot make me happier :dancebanana:

I thought people were having issues with the mbc and openport ecu?
Also, why do so many people on 8's and 9's run the boost solenoid setups?
Third, couldn't he go with the perrin ebcs? That would control boost better via the ecu and cost about the same as some mbc's.

I thought people were having issues with the mbc and openport ecu?
Also, why do so many people on 8's and 9's run the boost solenoid setups?
Third, couldn't he go with the perrin ebcs? That would control boost better via the ecu and cost about the same as some mbc's.
A: Nope, just the airflow and torque limits being hit and tiggering limp mode, mainly from boosting at part throttle since the MBC spools faster. This can be fixed by raising the values in the airflow and torque limit tables.

B: No idea. Electronic adjustability maybe, you can tune out any boost spikes.

Third: He could, but a ball and spring type MBC spools the turbo faster than a bleeder type boost control setup, whether it's manual or solenoid based. Bleeding pressure to control boost basically creates a controlled boost leak, so it could also be a contributor to higher IATs since the turbo has to work slightly harder to maintain boost with that slight boost leak.

I do like the fact that with the AccessPort and stock boost control I can switch maps and boost levels in 30 seconds or less, instead of switching maps and then getting out and turning down the MBC. That way when I switch back to a higher boost map, I don't have to turn up the boost, make a run to check, and turn it up more if needed. It is more convenient. I may try tightening the wastegate actuator and raising the solenoid duty cycle at lower rpms to see if it'll spool faster and hold boost up top like the MBC.

I tuned a car with an intake, tbe, tp, and fmic using the stock boost control system without removing or adding any pills. As you can see it held 20 psi of boost by 7000 rpm. Find me an mbc that can do that while running only 25.5 psi at peak

http://www.sr20deracing.com/looneytuning/Evo/RJ/psi.gif

I tuned a car with an intake, tbe, tp, and fmic using the stock boost control system without removing or adding any pills. As you can see it held 20 psi of boost by 7000 rpm. Find me an mbc that can do that while running only 25.5 psi at peak

http://www.sr20deracing.com/looneytuning/Evo/RJ/psi.gif

any adjustment to the wastegate? any information your not telling us?

maybe your just the best EBC tunner in the world? :thumbup:

I tuned a car with an intake, tbe, tp, and fmic using the stock boost control system without removing or adding any pills. As you can see it held 20 psi of boost by 7000 rpm. Find me an mbc that can do that while running only 25.5 psi at peak

http://www.sr20deracing.com/looneytuning/Evo/RJ/psi.gif

what gear were you in?

i noticed in 3rd i spike 26 and fall to 16-17 but in 4th i spike 26 but hold 19/20 to redline with stock ebc

I tuned a car with an intake, tbe, tp, and fmic using the stock boost control system without removing or adding any pills. As you can see it held 20 psi of boost by 7000 rpm. Find me an mbc that can do that while running only 25.5 psi at peak

http://www.sr20deracing.com/looneytuning/Evo/RJ/psi.gif

any adjustment to the wastegate? any information your not telling us?

maybe your just the best EBC tunner in the world? :thumbup:


I'm doing mine the same way, and I switch maps depending on where Im at and what Im wanting to run.

One map peaks @ 25psi holding 20 to redline, and others for different fuels that run 26+ psi to 19 or 20 by Redline (7500rpm). The only problem I have is IAT's generating too much heat. This won't be as big a problem though when I move my H2O/Meth pre turbo to squash some of the temp issues.

I'm doing mine the same way, and I switch maps depending on where Im at and what Im wanting to run.

One map peaks @ 25psi holding 20 to redline, and others for different fuels that run 26+ psi to 19 or 20 by Redline (7500rpm). The only problem I have is IAT's generating too much heat. This won't be as big a problem though when I move my H2O/Meth pre turbo to squash some of the temp issues.

are you serious, pre turbo? if you spray it before the throttlybody then it cools in the same effect and you get real use of the water/meth. if you put the water through the turbo i dont se you getting much use of the octane boost as it will be gone by the time it makes it to the TB.

^Yeah, keeping it before the throttle body still cools the charge, it just doesn't show on a log of the IATs because it doesn't cool the incoming air. Just because you see high IATs, doesn't mean it stays that way once it's in the cylinder and the water/meth mixes with the air/fuel.

^Yeah, keeping it before the throttle body still cools the charge, it just doesn't show on a log of the IATs because it doesn't cool the incoming air. Just because you see high IATs, doesn't mean it stays that way once it's in the cylinder and the water/meth mixes with the air/fuel.


ahh.. so i little injection before the turbo may help after all.. but you should still inject before the TB. just have the 2 points of injection.

any adjustment to the wastegate? any information your not telling us?

maybe your just the best EBC tunner in the world? :thumbup:

No wastegate adjustments at all. Just a lot of logging and making sure that the logged load numbers matched the load numbers in the rom and making sure that the wastegate is not beelding any boost, ie, WGDCC is not going negative.

I have been tuning ECU boost control for a long time. I was the first to bring it into SoCal. Most of the Evo Xs that I tune end up holding 19-20 psi by redline. If you check the SoCal Evo forums you will find many of my write-ups with charts like this one showing boost holding to ~19 psi by redline.

ahh.. so i little injection before the turbo may help after all.. but you should still inject before the TB. just have the 2 points of injection.
Lol...no I was agreeing with you saying to keep it before the TB and not before the turbo. If you log IATs with or without water/meth, it'll be the same, but when the water/meth enter the cylinder, that's where the cooling/high octane effect comes into play. You'll be able to run more boost and more timing, but you won't see any lower IATs at all from the sensor in the intake manifold.

ahh.. so i little injection before the turbo may help after all.. but you should still inject before the TB. just have the 2 points of injection.

There is a lot of info on it, check out Devils own injection website.
If done right you can run higher boost, more timing, and basically elongate the turbo efficiency map and run more effective boost longer. Keeping the compressor side of the turbo cooler can add more power.

However of you do it wrong you can ruin your turbo in a matter of weeks. If the injection isn't properly atomized and you get droplets or a stream running into the compressor you will damage the fins.

what gear were you in?

i noticed in 3rd i spike 26 and fall to 16-17 but in 4th i spike 26 but hold 19/20 to redline with stock ebc

That was in 4th gear, but here is the car going WOT from 1st gear through 4th gear. We had to stop @ 6300 in 4th for obvious reasons :D Almost the same exact peak boost in every gear w/o an MBC w/o any pills added or removed. The Evo X has an excellent stock boost control system if you know how to tune it.

http://www.sr20deracing.com/looneytuning/Evo/RJ/boost_gears.gif

thanks for the great chart.
if i am reading it right your hitting peak boost at 4800,5600,5600 & 5500?

edit: nevermind.. you were wot from every shift so your RPMs don't drop very far between shifts =) silly me
edit#2 damn now i want to go out and do the same log!

thanks for the great chart.
if i am reading it right your hitting peak boost at 4800,5600,5600 & 5500?

edit: nevermind.. you were wot from every shift so your RPMs don't drop very far between shifts =) silly me
edit#2 damn now i want to go out and do the same log!

Glad you like it. Here is another one. Car has tbe, tp, AEM intake, UICP. 23.xx psi in ALL four gears.

http://www.sr20deracing.com/looneytuning/Evo/Rob/boost_gears.gif