So today I did two back to back runs in 3rd gear and saw these the knock retard values in the high rpm range, As you can see Im getting mostly 1-2 in 5-7K range on 1st run and 6-7K in 2nd run, and one spot of 3 in 7400 when I change gear. However those are not audible by ear at the dyno.

My car is tuned on the rich side from 11.2 to 11.4. I am running the HKS step colder plugs M40XL and Okada Plasma for igniton, also running 94 octane (which is really 92 oct with booster).

Are these values of concern? Do you think I should make any adjustment on my map? Experts please chime in, thanks!


Updates:
Looks like the Knock Retard values are not really consistent from time to time. I went out today and did another 4 back to back pulls and surprisingly the values are all in 1s. No adjustment has been done since yesterday, the only changes is the weather which is much hotter then yesterday.

Take a look at my latest logs in post 10 and let me know what you think.

Is this at full throttle acceleration or partial.

These are at full throttle, so high loads and high rpm.

From what i read, some people who tunes via AP ignores the 1-2 knock counts in 6-7K for their tunning and see them as being false knock. Im getting mostly 1-2 in similar range, and one spot of 3 in 7400 when I change gear. Wanted to hear more opinions on this matter.

I talked to Cobb about Knock. Partial throttle Knock is normal in the summer at small counts. So you are saying you get knock when you are in between gears only? I have been logging quite a few lately and I get I get small counts at time under full throttle, but never above 1-2 at times. Most the time never above 0.7.

Here is one of my recent logs as well to compare.

My car is tuned on the rich side from 11.2 to 11.4. I am running the HKS step colder plugs M40XL

Why? Explain your reasoning for running colder plugs.

and Okada Plasma for igniton, also running 94 octane (which is really 92 oct with booster).

What octane booster and how much? It is very unlikely that you are gaining 2 FULL points of octane from a booster, unless you're running a gallon+ of xylene per tank.

Are these values of concern? Do you think I should make any adjustment on my map? Experts please chime in, thanks!

I'm not completely familiar with that exact log type (I use ecutek and EvoScan, but not the AP), but it appears that it's pulling as much as 3* of timing at WOT? Or is it reporting it in knock counts (in which case we're looking at 1* of timing being pulled).

If it's 1*, it's not a huge deal, but if it's 3*, it needs to be fixed asap.

PS - My eyes hurt just looking at your logs. Do us a favor and post in .csv format next time, eh?

Yeah I know partial throttle knocks are normal. My full throttle knock retards are mostly 1-2 at times between 4-6K and 5-6K, and a touch of 3 in 7K just when I lift off the throttle or change gears. Not sure if these are of concern as they are not audible by ears, but detectable on AP. My timing is a lot lower compare to what you are running too.

I talked to Cobb about Knock. Partial throttle Knock is normal in the summer at small counts. So you are saying you get knock when you are in between gears only? I have been logging quite a few lately and I get I get small counts at time under full throttle, but never above 1-2 at times. Most the time never above 0.7.

Step colder plugs helps timing.

The 94 octane is straight from our pump gas, but i heard they are really just 92octane with booster addictives.

The values you see here are knock retards in AP's language, not sure what it converts to Evoscan. On dyno, it did not pull timing and i was making power even with these values.

And lastly whats CSV format?


Why? Explain your reasoning for running colder plugs.



What octane booster and how much? It is very unlikely that you are gaining 2 FULL points of octane from a booster, unless you're running a gallon+ of xylene per tank.



I'm not completely familiar with that exact log type (I use ecutek and EvoScan, but not the AP), but it appears that it's pulling as much as 3* of timing at WOT? Or is it reporting it in knock counts (in which case we're looking at 1* of timing being pulled).

If it's 1*, it's not a huge deal, but if it's 3*, it needs to be fixed asap.

PS - My eyes hurt just looking at your logs. Do us a favor and post in .csv format next time, eh?

Step colder plugs helps timing.

Care to elaborate on that? Because apparently in your case, it doesn't.

In my experience, you want to run the hottest plugs you can that won't cause hot spots/preignition.

A colder plug is not only more likely to get fouled, but it is less likely to completely burn all the fuel in your cylinder. Running a colder plug is a bad thing, unless of course you have preignition due to a hot spot on the plug or something along those lines.

I've seen cars with too-cold plugs sputter/break up in the higher RPMs simply because the plug couldn't properly ignite what's in the cylinder.

Whether it's causing your issue or not, my recommendation right off the bat is to move back to stock plugs, as the colder plugs you run are more likely to be doing harm than good.

The 94 octane is straight from our pump gas, but i heard they are really just 92octane with booster addictives.If the pump says it's 94, then it's 94. What brand is it?

The values you see here are knock retards in AP's language, not sure what it converts to Evoscan. On dyno, it did not pull timing and i was making power even with these values.

And lastly whats CSV format?CSV = Comma Separated Values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values)

In other words, open your logs in a spreadsheet and make sure you save them in a universal CSV format so that any spreadsheet program can easily read them in to allow for easy reading and manipulation.

See dcas's attachment for a CSV. If you don't have a spreadsheet program on your PC (Such as Excel), you can download a free one at openoffice.org

Looks like the Knock Retard values are not really consistent from time to time. I went out today and did another 4 back to back pulls and surprisingly the values are all in 1s. No adjustment has been done since the first post, the only changes is the weather which is much hotter then yesterday.

Take a look at my latest logs and let me know what you think.

Ah, CSV is easy on the eyes.

No reply to my previous comments?

You don't want to put your stock plugs back in for experimentation?

I have plugged the stock plugs back and found no difference, definitely not the issue. But as I found out today, it looks like the knock retard values changes from time to time due to temperature.

Actually I did some research before going colder plugs, some ppl who had knockings issues can sometimes be solved by this route or ngk race plugs.

Ah, CSV is easy on the eyes.

No reply to my previous comments?

You don't want to put your stock plugs back in for experimentation?

Just so we're all on the same page, when a tuner posts that 1 - 2 counts of knock are acceptable, they really mean "counts".

The AP logs in Knock Retard, which is the estimated degrees of timing the car will pull from the amount of detected knock.

For all intensive purposes, one Knock Retard = 3 Knock Counts. If you're getting 2+ Knock RETARD, you need to fix it, since that is 6+ counts of knock. The time around gear change is more likely phantom knock, so it's probably not a problem. I haven't looked at the log yet, I'll check when I get home.

Thanks for info. I find it surprising to get inconsistent knock retard values due to weather changes. My KR values dropped to 1s today compared to yesterday in the 1-3 range.

So i guess the rule of thumb is anything over 2 would need attention? but under that would be considered acceptable?

Just so we're all on the same page, when a tuner posts that 1 - 2 counts of knock are acceptable, they really mean "counts".

The AP logs in Knock Retard, which is the estimated degrees of timing the car will pull from the amount of detected knock.

For all intensive purposes, one Knock Retard = 3 Knock Counts. If you're getting 2+ Knock RETARD, you need to fix it, since that is 6+ counts of knock. The time around gear change is more likely phantom knock, so it's probably not a problem. I haven't looked at the log yet, I'll check when I get home.

Ah, CSV is easy on the eyes.

No reply to my previous comments?

You don't want to put your stock plugs back in for experimentation?

Dino .. you DON'T want to go hotter on the X :D

Most of us running colder plugs find that the knocks actually went away ..

No change to cold starts and mpg ..

I'm thinking the probably because the compression is relative higher for a turbo car and coupled to the fact we like 26psi boost (for some odd reason :bowlol:)

Leo - I think the best people to ask is Cobb regarding the knock retard ..
observations suggest what everyone is posting here .. 1 KR = 3 knock counts .. so you're seeing around 6-7 on a good day .. and probably 9 or more on a hot day ..

If you notice, Cobb starts from 0.35 knock retard, that is actually 1 count of knock sum. So like everyone says, 3 knock counts equal to 1 knock retard.

Also the HKS M40 plugs are actually the stock heat range (NGK #8), the M45 is one step colder which is NGK heat range #9.

Are you sure about this?? if so, guess i bought the wrong set of plugs :duh:



Also the HKS M40 plugs are actually the stock heat range (NGK #8), the M45 is one step colder which is NGK heat range #9.

Are you sure about this?? if so, guess i bought the wrong set of plugs :duh:


I'm positive, check the HKS USA site (http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=3115), 45=9, 40=8, 35=7, etc.

Thanks for info. I find it surprising to get inconsistent knock retard values due to weather changes. My KR values dropped to 1s today compared to yesterday in the 1-3 range.

So i guess the rule of thumb is anything over 2 would need attention? but under that would be considered acceptable?


No sir, in cobb and ecutek language anything higher than Knock Retard of 1 needs attention. In Ecuflash / EvoScan terms with would be a Knock Sum of 3.

Your KnockRetard value of 3 = KnockSum of 9

I don't get why you have a hard time understanding how weather conditions affect whats going on in the combustion chamber considering the air that is getting compressed and mixed with fuel is coming from the outside climat...

Anyway, start by pulling 1 degree of timing from the area's that are showing KnockRetard of 1 or more. The tune you are running is just too aggressive to account for weather variations. As for why it was not retarding on the dyno, most likely because the dyno is not loading the car has hard as it is being loaded on the road and or you are hitting different load cells on the road than you were on the dyno.

Leo, PM me and I'll log with EVOScan since that's what everyone (myself included) are used to reading. (As long as I can use your lift sometime :-P) Ehehehe. Seriously though...I don't mind. BTW, does anyone know if AP maps have Mode 23 enabled...or do I need to do that too?

verkion