Hey guys, I need some help here.
I live in California and run crappy 91 octane.
My car is tuned by WORKS Motorsports [WORKSEVO]
Smog laws are tough here so I've been trying to keep my car stealthy, plus I'm not into being flashy or loud. I'm wingless and the magnaflow is relatively quiet.

I was super happy with my car the last time I got it tuned.
Previous results [my stage two]
WORKS P2R Flash and custom dyno tuning
WORKS boost hose
WORKS drop in air filter
WORKS 3.5" Intercooler
Magnaflow Catback
Result: 310 hp & 303 torque on a DynaPack

I went out and spent $2000 and I'm feeling like I didn't get my money's worth.
[stage three]
Cosworth MX1 Camshafts
Nisei 1pc Matte Black UICP
Perrin Turbo Inlet Hose
Walbro GSS317
Result: 327 hp & 320 torque

I know I'm on 91octane and I'm running the stock cat and downpipe, but I have seen other dyno sheets in the 360-375hp range. These results aren't from a "heartbreaker dyno", the baseline is in the 240s for this dyno. My shop didn't give me an overlay of my last tune, but when I plot the points I find some areas where I have a 30hp gain, and my peak torque is 200rpm lower and my peak power is 500rpm sooner and flatter.

So what do you guys think?
Should I scrap the drop in and turbo inlet and get a cold air intake?
Should I put an AMS widemouth downpipe on?
Is the downpipe worth anything if I keep my stock cat on?
Should I get a different tuner?
Are the cams only going to show nice results if I get a bigger turbo like a FP Green or GT3071?

Please HELP!
Thanks

That does seem low for cams, but everything else isn't really a power booster.

The UICP is more of a "responsiveness" items.
The Inlet hose is more of a "I like to spend money" item.
The fuel pump won't do anything without a need for more fuel. You ain't running out of gas.

I don't think your numbers look BAD per say, but I don't think your tuner did their due diligence with your cam install.

The biggest thing I notice right away is how choppy your print-out is. That makes me wonder if something else might be going on here. That being said, I've been yet to see any huge gains with cams on a stock turbo. I wouldn't worry about the DP. I don't believe they make a huge difference, and yes, it would be nearly pointless w/ a stock cat. Definitely not a worthwhile investment. See my thread here in the dyno forum also, you can see what power levels are possible with the stock downpipe. An intake won't net much gain over what you're running now either.

So, I think you might have too great of expectations on the cams, but your print-out makes me wonder if something else is going on with your car. If it is, its quite likely in the tune, but not necessarily. You could try a different tuner, but you may get similar results. I, for one, switched from one tuner to another and made a lot more power on the same mods with a richer tune.

You might want to try another tuner... There are quite a few very good Evo tuners in the Bay Area.

That stock cat is really killing you now even more so with your mods. Ditch that thing and at least get a high flow cat if your a hippie.

agree with seb, get a high flow cat and try a different tuner maybe...

definitely get a high flow cat, UR has a good unit at a good price. I would look at a turbo upgrade as well since you made the investment in cams and you won't get the most of them without a turbo that can move more air. For reference, I have a very similar mod list except I have a dom2. I am putting down 359whp/316wtq on GST's mustang which is regarded as a heartbreaker. (btw, GST is in the bay area as well).

Head over to gst motorsports and have them take care of anew tune for you. A widemouth o2 dp and hfc will net u some nice gains.

yeah cams wont really do much on 91 + stock turbo u need a bigger turbo to make it show and better gas/ meth inj. u shoulda went full TBE with drop in filter and tune that woulda made alot of power

17whp from mild cams isn't bad.

I dont think its all that bad either. The cams did little for peak horsepower in my beast. They mostly just moved the curve...

I dont think its all that bad either. The cams did little for peak horsepower in my beast. They mostly just moved the curve...

Bingo.

at least get a high flow cat if your a hippie.

lol. You could even buy one from Seb, like I did. The stock cat is -25 compared to a test pipe...GST has done back-to-back dynos on that.

Talk to Bryan@GST Motorsports (Hayward, CA). Im sure there is plenty of power potential still there to be made, and he would be the guy to bring it out. Don't waste your money on a cat, just pick up a nice RRE Rally Cat TP (SpeedElement has them) and call it a day.

17whp from mild cams isn't bad.

I dont think its all that bad either. The cams did little for peak horsepower in my beast. They mostly just moved the curve...

:yeahthat:

I was told to expect 15-20 WHP. And yeah, a different curve too.

This is exactly why I keep telling people not to do cams on an X.

People still expect huge ass gains like with the Evo 8's, but in reality MIVEC has made cam upgrades worthless until you get more air flowing and the stock cams become the bottle neck. Stock cams are not the engine's bottle neck on the X until you get a bigger turbo, even Gates is running stock cams and hes making 570whp.

I regret doing cams on the stock turbo all the time but I am going bigger so its not terrible but if you plan on keeping the stock turbo don't do cams you won't really see gains worth the money spent.

Why would you tell people not to do cams? 17whp for $600 and an improved power band sounds like a deal to me...

Why would you tell people not to do cams? 17whp for $600 and an improved power band sounds like a deal to me...


You serious? First off 600 is low, i got an awesome deal on my MX1's and I paid slightly more, but it's not the cam cost, its the install.

When all is said and done, you are looking at over 1000 for cams/install. Unless you are doing the install yourself there is no way around that. I just think its a way better idea to spend another 500-800 and get a turbo, you could even get a green for nearly no loss in spool or powerband and make WAY more power.

I just think its a way better idea to spend another 500-800 and get a turbo, you could even get a green for nearly no loss in spool or powerband and make WAY more power.

But then you need injectors, a fuel pump, + installation!

To the OP, I recommend you visit another tuner

But then you need injectors, a fuel pump, + installation!

Precisely. So a turbo will cost you twice what the cams would installed. It will give you more peak power, but less low end power. OTOH, the cams will give you a decent bump everywhere.

cams are great but the op really should have gone with a TBE first in stead of just the CBE.

But then you need injectors, a fuel pump, + installation!

Additional power requires additional fuel. That's true with cams or a turbo, isn't it?

I've been told that it could take 6 hours to install cams on a X. If you already have an aftermarket downpipe then the turbo install is half that. $1k is an extremely optimistic installed price for cams.

Cams on a stock turbo are 15hp or so...I've never heard of a turbo upgrade making less than 40. Bang for the buck is simply no comparison.

Where cams make sense are after you have a bigger turbo and you install springs so you can rev out the motor. Raising the redline into the 8k's on an upgraded turbo can result in really big peak gains.

Thanks for all the input guys.

I think the dyno graph is "choppy" because it's a dynapack. They take off all of the wheels and put a drive unit on each hub. I think mustang dynos read smoother because they are spinning some heavy rollers and it smoothes the power out.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The RRE Rally Cat is a great idea, but a bad execution. I can make better welds than the ones I saw on the sample image. You know if welds look bad on an advertisement then the welds you get in the mail are going to look worse.

I might figure something out with using the stock heat shields on a HFC, gutting a stock cat and putting a straight pipe in it, or gutting a stock cat at putting a milspec 100cel in it. I'm open for stealthy ideas, but I really need another stock cat to mess with. PM me if you've got one you'll let go for under $100.

I found a few shops that would do the Cosworth install for $1000, plus tax.
I paid $1500 out the door for the cams, install and several hours on the dyno.
I put on the Walbro pump because my tuner said I needed some "headroom".
GST said I needed injectors, but not a Walbro. I didn't tell them I was going to run E85 or anything. They told me I'd be at $2600 out the door for cams, injectors and a tune.

I didn't go TBE yet because my magnaflow CBE sounds great. It's not loud at all from the front seat, but with the windows down, in a parking garage, or doing engine braking it's very throaty and the cams make the idle sound pretty nasty. I don't want to be any louder.

California has strict SMOG laws and I've heard of guys getting $2000 tickets and 30 day impounds for missing catalytic converters. The high flow cat is just as illegal as a test pipe here in CA. The only advantage I'd have with a HFC over a test pipe is the noise reduction and if a cop were behind me he may not smell my exhaust and decide to put his mirror & flashlight under my car.

I might end up doing the AMS widemouth downpipe. It's illegal here in CA, but no smog shop or cop could tell unless they had the car on a lift. I doubt I would get anything near the 15whp gain that AMS claims with the stock cat on, but that O2 housing should yeild SOME gain.

I'm also thinking about the FP Green or Garrett GT3071. This is my daily driver and my last car racked up 50,000 miles in 22 months, so I want to keep my torque. It's hard with these cars. I guess you gotta know when to stop.

over $1000 for cams and an install is ridiculous

If youre looking for a turbo I'd look at the FP green or Dom 2.0. Last time I heard anything about them, a couple months back, the Garret 3071/76 were still having issues making decent power without going all out on the build.

I found a few shops that would do the Cosworth install for $1000, plus tax.
I paid $1500 out the door for the cams, install and several hours on the dyno.
I put on the Walbro pump because my tuner said I needed some "headroom".
GST said I needed injectors, but not a Walbro. I didn't tell them I was going to run E85 or anything. They told me I'd be at $2600 out the door for cams, injectors and a tune.


Bryan is correct .. once you add any power enhancing items other than the standard boltons .. you WILL NEED injectors .. you have not reached the flow limit of the pump yet ..

Your gains sounds about right for the cosworth cams .. around 15 to 20hp gains .. as stated earlier ..

over $1000 for cams and an install is ridiculous

MX1's are over $700 alone so that only leaves enough for 3 hours of labor. afaik it can't be done in that timeframe.

Jason said that he paid $1500 out the door. That's $800 in shop profit. I could get it done for that...

You paid 1000 for cam install. Cobb Plano and Evodynamics charge less than 300. Biggest charge was my turbo install at 6 hours labor. Sorry you paid that much.

You paid 1000 for cam install.

MX1 + install. You also need a tune so the OTD price isn't exactly cheap if you divide it by horsepower.

To get any real power you have to do springs and up the rev limit. I haven't seen any solid estimate on doing springs. Most guys say "I was rebuilding the whole motor at the time, so can't really tell you."

I only have stage 1 kelfords. I got those for 625, and could have got cosworth at same price. I paid 250 for install of stage ones. I did not do cams for peak power though. I did it to help my turbo spool and give wider power band with bigger turbo.

I only have stage 1 kelfords. I got those for 625, and could have got cosworth at same price. I paid 250 for install of stage ones. I did not do cams for peak power though. I did it to help my turbo spool and give wider power band with bigger turbo.

So you paid almost $1000 for the cams and the install...

250+625=875.

I really want to see if the MIVEC settings on this car...

I bet you that is the issue. Either cam it wayyyy to advanced or the exhaust cam is wayyyy to retarded in the upper rpm and load range.

I also agree, after seeing more and more cars. I am coming to a slow conclusion that cams are not the right direction for these cars with the dual mivec. Gates has a awesome car with stock cams and making a ton of power. I think unless you go large like a GT35R. Adding cams will hurt your performance and definitely move the power band higher in the RPM range. Which for a daily driver might not be the ideal choice.

I think money could be spent better else where mostly on a tune. There is a ton ton ton of benefit to mivec to be had if done properly. Many places unfortunately don't know how to tune the EVO X cams, or tune it like they tune the EVO 9 cams, which isn't the correct way.

In reality when you go to most tuners you pay for the MIVEC settings they developed. Because really tuning fuel and spark is pretty similar to any other EFI car.

So you paid almost $1000 for the cams and the install...

250+625=875.

Thought he was saying he paid 1000 just for the install alone. I was thinking ouch.

I think the cams helped greatly with spool on my car. I could be wrong, but mine spools pretty damn fast for a bigger turbo.

I really want to see if the MIVEC settings on this car...

I bet you that is the issue. Either cam it wayyyy to advanced or the exhaust cam is wayyyy to retarded in the upper rpm and load range.

I also agree, after seeing more and more cars. I am coming to a slow conclusion that cams are not the right direction for these cars with the dual mivec. Gates has a awesome car with stock cams and making a ton of power. I think unless you go large like a GT35R. Adding cams will hurt your performance and definitely move the power band higher in the RPM range. Which for a daily driver might not be the ideal choice.

I think money could be spent better else where mostly on a tune. There is a ton ton ton of benefit to mivec to be had if done properly. Many places unfortunately don't know how to tune the EVO X cams, or tune it like they tune the EVO 9 cams, which isn't the correct way.

In reality when you go to most tuners you pay for the MIVEC settings they developed. Because really tuning fuel and spark is pretty similar to any other EFI car.

I think the cams helped greatly with spool on my car. I could be wrong, but mine spools pretty damn fast for a bigger turbo.

When is full spool achieved?

^3643 Rpm. Not begining to spool up, but 26psi.

Yup, basically what I said, good post.

I really want to see if the MIVEC settings on this car...

I bet you that is the issue. Either cam it wayyyy to advanced or the exhaust cam is wayyyy to retarded in the upper rpm and load range.

I also agree, after seeing more and more cars. I am coming to a slow conclusion that cams are not the right direction for these cars with the dual mivec. Gates has a awesome car with stock cams and making a ton of power. I think unless you go large like a GT35R. Adding cams will hurt your performance and definitely move the power band higher in the RPM range. Which for a daily driver might not be the ideal choice.

I think money could be spent better else where mostly on a tune. There is a ton ton ton of benefit to mivec to be had if done properly. Many places unfortunately don't know how to tune the EVO X cams, or tune it like they tune the EVO 9 cams, which isn't the correct way.

In reality when you go to most tuners you pay for the MIVEC settings they developed. Because really tuning fuel and spark is pretty similar to any other EFI car.

I got those for 625, and could have got cosworth at same price.

A good price. I searched Google for a few hours and couldn't find MX1's for under 700 new.

I paid 650 for mine, 625 seems possible.

HBSpeed^^ That doesn't include springs though. Jon hooked me up with great prices on my Turbo and my Cams. I originally ordered Cosworth from him, but the were out at the time and I need them in a week. So I got the kelfords.

However, shops charging 300 for the install aren't making money on that install, probably shops desperate for business in these economic times or have no overhead. The install takes a long time.

HBSpeed

That would explain it...they don't have an online store. heh.

^Cobb, Plano was one of them and EvoDynamics what the other. Neither acted like it was that big of deal. Evodynamics guys definitely arent hurting for business and from the looks of Cobb on a Saturday I doubt they are either. Both places are packed with customer cars.

Evodynamics guys definitely arent hurting for business

You do enough of them then I'm sure you learn all the tricks to get it done quicker. Living here in MN there are only a handful of X's in the metro area. My clutch was the first that one of the local performance shops had done...murlo's cam was the first that another shop had done.

I'm not driving to TX (or AMS in Chicago) to get my cam installed, though. I don't have that kind of vacation time.

Ya I though I was screwed in okc until cobb opened and evod opened. It's 250 miles so not to bad.

Ya I though I was screwed in okc

I live in Subaru-land. I'd be set if I'd bought an STi. :)

The Cosworth MX1 Camshafts definately did not hurt performance.
My peak torque moved from 3700rpm to 3500rpm and it's 17lbft more.
There are areas of the hp and tq curve that I've observed gains of 30, plus the curves are more linear and flatter. The only loss in performance is below 2,000rpm. The idle lumps from 750-900 where it used to sit steady at 700 or 800. The exhaust is altogether louder now. I never used to set off car alarms with my stock cat and magnaflow CBE, but now I do. Stop and go traffic uphill sucks. I have to slip the clutch a little more than before when I'm going uphill, but when I'm flat it takes off just like it did before. I didn't do the upgraded springs because I'm not going to rev past 7800rpm. Looking at my stock turbo dyno graphs, I'm making 313hp/225tq at 7400rpm where the dyno pull stops. The torque curve goes down at about 45degrees after 285tq @ 6,000rpm. My tuner [WORKS] got back to me and said that my car has a "safe" tune on it and that they could make more power if I didn't care about longevity, but this is my daily driver. They said injectors, o2 downpipe and hfc/test pipe would put me north of 350hp, but I can't see changing the downpipe and injectors and not putting a Green or Dom2.0 in there.

I haven't made any decisions yet, but I'm thinking the most logical solution is to stay at 327/320, or maybe do an AMS HFC and TIG weld my stock heat sheilds onto it so that it looks stock, smells stock, and sounds like just a catback. I'd expect that to get me close to the 340hp range with maybe a little better spool on my current tune.

Then after I get a job [yes, I've dumped $3,000 into my 7 month old car in the last 3 months and I've been unemployed for 4 months :) ] I would do the 800cc's, Green or Dom & o2 DP. Probably would need a new clutch at that point too.

I've heard South Coast Mitsu selling these cams for $650. They are usually $750, but I got them 15% off, then I had to pay 9.75% sales tax :(

Thanks for all your input, guys.

I never used to set off car alarms with my stock cat and magnaflow CBE, but now I do.

:thumbup: I've only set one off with my stock setup. Far too sensitive, imo.


Stop and go traffic uphill sucks. I have to slip the clutch a little more than before when I'm going uphill, but when I'm flat it takes off just like it did before.

I was just thinking I'd better get comfortable with my six puck before I go adding more complications. lol.

I wouldn't say the cams add complication to driving.

I can definately feel the power, and hear the power, but it's not a chore to drive.

I'm sure the traffic in Saint Paul Minnesota is nothing like what we have here in San Francisco. The cams aren't even bad in traffic, yesterday it took me 45 minutes to drive 5 miles on the freeway, but it was no big deal because the freeway was flat.

Just stop and go on the uphill sucks because you can't creep without the gas. You have to spin to 2,000- 2,500 to go uphill and it gets stinky after 40-50 creeps forward moving 1/2 a car length each time.

Luckily I work in construction so I'm usually at work before most people wake up and I'm getting home a little before everybody else gets off work. Unless I'm doing 10 or 12 hour days, then I'm driving home with the rest of you, but there's a smile on my face because they pay me like a surgeon after 8h and like a lawyer after 10h.

I wouldn't say the cams add complication to driving.

I can definately feel the power, and hear the power, but it's not a chore to drive.

I'm sure the traffic in Saint Paul Minnesota is nothing like what we have here in San Francisco. The cams aren't even bad in traffic, yesterday it took me 45 minutes to drive 5 miles on the freeway, but it was no big deal because the freeway was flat.

Just stop and go on the uphill sucks because you can't creep without the gas. You have to spin to 2,000- 2,500 to go uphill and it gets stinky after 40-50 creeps forward moving 1/2 a car length each time.

Luckily I work in construction so I'm usually at work before most people wake up and I'm getting home a little before everybody else gets off work. Unless I'm doing 10 or 12 hour days, then I'm driving home with the rest of you, but there's a smile on my face because they pay me like a surgeon after 8h and like a lawyer after 10h.

If the cams are tuned right then driving shouldn't be an issue.

Also the traffic in the twin cities is the worst in the nation per capita, so for our population. I just read the top 100 and we are 17th overall for traffic badness.

I have a stretch on my 30mile commute that takes 30 minutes for 4 miles or so pretty much every day. An hour when it snows. 2 hours total when it snows.

Your gains look normal to me. Dollar spent per horsepower achieved is in fact a different story. I wouldn't waste my time on cams with the stock turbo. At some point people will start treating the 4B11 like a new platform and not a 4G63 reincarnated.

Your gains look normal to me. Dollar spent per horsepower achieved is in fact a different story. I wouldn't waste my time on cams with the stock turbo. At some point people will start treating the 4B11 like a new platform and not a 4G63 reincarnated.

:yeahthat:

Murlo,
You're making almost 400/400 on a dynojet with the stock turbo, downpipe and intercooler? That ethanol is amazing.
I'm jealous. We have two ethanol stations here in the San Francisco Bay, and they're both 30 minutes from my house :(

Murlo,
You're making almost 400/400 on a dynojet with the stock turbo, downpipe and intercooler? That ethanol is amazing.
I'm jealous. We have two ethanol stations here in the San Francisco Bay, and they're both 30 minutes from my house :(

No downpipe or innercooler on my car yet.

I guess intercoolers are more useful on gasoline since it detonates much easier than ethanol, you're already running extra timing.
The o2 downpipe should yield some nice results with the extra boost and high EGT's your running with your stock turbo, and even more so with your RED

Is that dyno where u have to take of your wheels???:dancebanana:

Don't forget if he would put 93oct and take out the cat,and run and better tune he would see a huge difference..

and run and better tune?
93 octane isn't available here in the San Francisco bay area
we all know that a test pipe is worth 15-25hp
I wasn't complaining about my total HP/ TQ, I was a little unhappy with my peak gains, but still really happy with my power band shift and flatening of the curves.

Yes, you take off all four wheels on a Dynapack. It takes longer to set up as opposed to a roll on dyno, but there's no tire slip and less rotating mass and intertia so the curves look more choppy. Think mustang dynos as having a heavy flywheel as compared to a lightweight flywheel, the heavy one is going to keep spinning, and the lightweight one is going to slow down really fast.

Get a new tuner and go on a dynojet! :afro:

and run and better tune?
93 octane isn't available here in the San Francisco bay area
we all know that a test pipe is worth 15-25hp
I wasn't complaining about my total HP/ TQ, I was a little unhappy with my peak gains, but still really happy with my power band shift and flatening of the curves.

Yes, you take off all four wheels on a Dynapack. It takes longer to set up as opposed to a roll on dyno, but there's no tire slip and less rotating mass and intertia so the curves look more choppy. Think mustang dynos as having a heavy flywheel as compared to a lightweight flywheel, the heavy one is going to keep spinning, and the lightweight one is going to slow down really fast.
Weak power gains my friend for your combo.If i was u i would go to a real tuner......holla

I don't see how putting my car on a different dyno is going to make it faster.
It's great to tell people who know little about cars that you have 3xx or 4xx horsepower, but usually when I'm dealing with people who don't know much, I estimate flywheel HP at 400 anyway.

I know an o2 DP and test pipe will get me into the 350hp range, and my tuner suggests 800cc injectors at that level.
I can't justify more dyno time, larger injectors and the cost of downpipe install labor without getting a new turbo as well, so I think I'll stay at this level for a bit longer, maybe run a HFC on my current tune and call it 340hp, est 410 at the crank. That should be enough of a load on my stock clutch and transfer case.

I appreciate the guys who have reccomended GST and I value first hand experience, but please don't tell me WORKS Motorsports is not a real tuner. Check out thier website. They have been on the cutting edge of tuning evos ever since they hit the USA. They actually manufacture parts for the evo. They specialize in Evo and barely work on any other cars. Please don't confuse a real tuner with a tuner who only cares about big HP numbers at the expense of engine/ drivetrain longevity and daily driver reliability.

Don't mind them, your setup is good. Some people prefer the extra 10-20 hp rather than the safety of their engines. I think WORKS knows what they are doing, they make good shit.

I don't see how putting my car on a different dyno is going to make it faster.
It's great to tell people who know little about cars that you have 3xx or 4xx horsepower, but usually when I'm dealing with people who don't know much, I estimate flywheel HP at 400 anyway.

I know an o2 DP and test pipe will get me into the 350hp range, and my tuner suggests 800cc injectors at that level.
I can't justify more dyno time, larger injectors and the cost of downpipe install labor without getting a new turbo as well, so I think I'll stay at this level for a bit longer, maybe run a HFC on my current tune and call it 340hp, est 410 at the crank. That should be enough of a load on my stock clutch and transfer case.

I appreciate the guys who have reccomended GST and I value first hand experience, but please don't tell me WORKS Motorsports is not a real tuner. Check out thier website. They have been on the cutting edge of tuning evos ever since they hit the USA. They actually manufacture parts for the evo. They specialize in Evo and barely work on any other cars. Please don't confuse a real tuner with a tuner who only cares about big HP numbers at the expense of engine/ drivetrain longevity and daily driver reliability.

firstly
you are probably dealing with whp from a dyno graph..not fly wheel hp so theres a big difference
secondly - each dyno is different... we call it the dyno lottery here in the uk.. with many people often being left dissappointed..
furthermore we even have one dyno called the 'heart breaker' which seems to suggest everyone is down on power..

what i should say though is a re-tune with the cams -unless you already have done..
but you should re-tune after each major change to get the best..

with the cams im sure your limit will be closer / above 8000 rpm

My car was on the dyno for 3-4 hours.
I think everybody on this forum understands the difference between flywheel HP and whp. The only reference to flywheel hp i've ever seen aside from Mitsubishi's 291hp claim is Garrett advertising their GT30's and Vishnu advertising their mail-in-crash.

The cams are great for flattening out the torque and HP curve, and brining the power on sooner, but when it comes to peak gains, it's still a limitation of the turbo. Just like how many guys have been dissapointed by stroker upgrades. It doesn't really matter how much air your motor can swallow, it's all about how much air your turbo can push. Lesson learned. Of course strokers do help with spool up and torque.

I tried my hand at autocrossing yesterday and in hindsight, probably shouldn't have gotten the cams if I was going to be competitive. There was a guy there with waay more power than I had, but he was able to run in a slower class.
It seems like the best autox advantage is E85 with big injectors and a walbro, full bolt ons and a stock turbo, with a tight suspension and autox tires. I just went to have fun, but it's a little upsetting to know that my stock suspension, OE tires, and cosworth cams guarantee I won't place. Maybe I'll have some success in the Novice class. Oh well, lesson learned.

it's a little upsetting to know that my stock suspension, OE tires, and cosworth cams guarantee I won't place.

Yeah, I plan to do a novice school in April just for fun. Auto-x is racing and to be competitive your car has to be built for the form of racing that you're into. No surprise, really.

I'm building my car to be a daily driver first of all...racing coilovers aren't in the cards.

To be competitive, I'd need 285 slick tires, coilovers dropped as far as possible and stiffened up, sway bars, bigger turbo, and I could even do a stroker. Even then I'd still probably get walked on by guys with Evo 8/9s with the same setup.

Side note, I couldn't believe how fast those 89 civic si's were going with stock motors and no Vtec. They were flying [literally a 1/4 of the car was flying at times] the fastest 89 civic was faster than the fastest evo. Go figure. Those things couldn't stand a chance at the road course, though.

I could probably do an FP turbo and the cams and nobody would ever second guess my class since I've a novice anyway. I ain't no cheater, though. But I bet there's guys out there saying they're running stock turbos when really they're using a FP green or BBK/BBX, or Dom. I bet you.
One thing that was confusing to me, the guy running E85 had an upgraded fuel system, and it seems to me that big injectors should count as an engine mod.
Plus he was also running a non-stock boost map [i think you're only allowed to run altered fuel and timing maps by SCCA rules] but he didn't seem to think that disqualified him.