Ok, this is the third one. In came in less than 1k miles ago with upgraded pins by Sheptrans.
I didn't track, I didn't launch, just normal driving, coz I was expecting a retune.
We noticed silver oil in the tranny, so we took it apart and there it was. There were no obviouse symptoms, no strange noises etc.
At this point I'm out of ideas on what may be causing the diff to break so quickly and inevitably. Where should I look outside of the gearbox to find a problem. The car seems to drive fine, no error codes or strange noises.
I'm really frustraded to say the least considering the time and amount of money I put in it.

Do you have shops specializing in evos/dsms in russia? I'm talking someone who has atleast half the expertise/knowledge that AMS has. If you wanna plug the hole in your pocket, you gotta get some professional help.

Yeah, I second that; who did your install work? The pin/differential work isn't exactly "normal" work, and if you didn't have someone who knows WTF they were doing do it, well... yeah.

Last time I got the whole new diff already upgraded from Sheptrans.

Oh.

Well then.

What fluids were you using, how much fluid were you using, what kind of clutch and other drivetrain upgrades you running, how much power to the wheels, what kind of weather. Anything and EVERYTHING you can post about the operating environment of your car will help someone answer your questions better.

BTW, why did you get a new stock ACD? Why did you not go for an aftermarket one, like cusco, carbonetic etc?

BTW, why did you get a new stock ACD? Why did you not go for an aftermarket one, like cusco, carbonetic etc?
Those are front diffs. AFAIK there's no aftermarket alternative for our center diff.
On conditions in short: Exedy twin clutch, no other upgrades for the drivetrain. First two diffs broke with the stock tranny fluid, the level was ok until broken pins made a hole in the tranny case. Last time we used Motul, the level is up to spec (no hole yet). Now I'm running approximately 330 whp. As I said, normal driving.
The ony other thing for the last time - I had this broken SSP MC installed, so often at slow maneauvering my car stalled due to the stuck clutch pedal.

Check both the front and rear diffs. They could be causing some kind of issue on the center.

Do you have big ass tires on the rear and small tiny ones on the front? :D

Those are front diffs. AFAIK there's aftermarket alternative for our center diff.
On conditions in short: Exedy twin clutch, no other upgrades for the drivetrain. First two diffs broke with the stock tranny fluid, the level was ok until broken pins made a hole in the tranny case. Last time we used Motul, the level is up to spec (no hole yet). Now I'm running approximately 330 whp. As I said, normal driving.
The ony other thing for the last time - I had this broken SSP MC installed, so often at slow maneauvering my car stalled due to the stuck clutch pedal.

Try posting up FULL detail. Its really does help. Like golden asked, u running a staggered setup?

No, front and rear tires are same stock size. What could be the symptoms of broken front/read diffs?

So in 1000 miles a hole new diff with upgraded pins from shep trans broke and you drove it normally? Wtf

So in 1000 miles a hole new diff with upgraded pins from shep trans broke and you drove it normally? Wtf
Yep, that's what I keep repeating all day today.

unfortunately, with the info you posted, its going to be very very hard for someone to diagnose the issue you're having without actually being there. You really do need professional help with the car. Good Luck and keep the thread updated with any progress.

I'd be happy to give you more info if you tell me what exactly you're looking for.
What I'm looking for is ideas of what may have caused the isse to repeat 3 times over on the same car in the normal driving conditions.
First time the diff broke - I replaced the whole tranny
Second time - diff broke, oil drain, tranny fried from running dry. We rebuilt one from the remains of the two and put upgraded diff.
This time it only lasted for less than 1000 miles.
Now I have a suggestion to check front and rear diffs. I will do that but it will cost me money.

I'd be happy to give you more info if you tell me what exactly you're looking for.
What I'm looking for is ideas of what may have caused the isse to repeat 3 times over on the same car in the normal driving conditions.
First time the diff broke - I replaced the whole tranny
Second time - diff broke, oil drain, tranny fried from running dry. We rebuilt one from the remains of the two and put upgraded diff.
This time it only lasted for less than 1000 miles.
Now I have a suggestion to check front and rear diffs. I will do that but it will cost me money.

So how exactly did you do this? More importantly, who did it and what expertise do they have as far as tranny rebuilding goes?

So how exactly did you do this? More importantly, who did it and what expertise do they have as far as tranny rebuilding goes?

Either way how would this cause the upgraded pins to back out?

sub'd

Those are front diffs. AFAIK there's no aftermarket alternative for our center diff.


I feel your pain. And you shouldn't have todo this..

AFAIK the front diff IS the centre diff :)

You can replace that with a supertraction/cusco/whatever and everything should be sweet...

What does shep say about these failures? since they built it for you...?

I'd be happy to give you more info if you tell me what exactly you're looking for.
What I'm looking for is ideas of what may have caused the isse to repeat 3 times over on the same car in the normal driving conditions.
First time the diff broke - I replaced the whole tranny
Second time - diff broke, oil drain, tranny fried from running dry. We rebuilt one from the remains of the two and put upgraded diff.
This time it only lasted for less than 1000 miles.
Now I have a suggestion to check front and rear diffs. I will do that but it will cost me money.

Can you post up pictures of all three incidents?

So how exactly did you do this? More importantly, who did it and what expertise do they have as far as tranny rebuilding goes?
The shop which did it for me is good and they know what they are doing. I have a confidence in them.

Either way how would this cause the upgraded pins to back out?
That's what I'm trying to figre out. I'm not putting in another diff until I find a reason why they break so quickly and for no particular reason.
AFAIK the front diff IS the centre diff :)

You can replace that with a supertraction/cusco/whatever and everything should be sweet...
I think the diffs that cusco sell go into the transfer case because they are with and without AYC. Center diff distributes between the fron and the rear.

What does shep say about these failures? since they built it for you...?
My reseller is talking to them right now. So far they are shoked like everybody else. They say they put those diffs in racing cars and nothing happens.
I also didn't realize that something happened untill I came to the shop for engine upgrade, they pulled tranny and saw silver oil.

Can you post up pictures of all three incidents?
I will when I get back, I'm on a trip now.

man your having bad luck..sorry

Sub'd for a problem that I've been thinking about since the first month I've owned this car.

updates?

Sorry guys, it seems like its a false alarm and the diff is ok.
What happened was my mechanic saw silver oil in the tranny. They opened it and saw the shafts sticking out a little from the diff:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/Diff_0014.jpg
But it appears that this is normal. That's the way Shep trans do them. In the stock diff, however, they are flush with the diff case. And this caused the confusion as they told me the diff was broken and I started panicking.
I was about to send the diff to Shep Trans, but before that I checked the retaining pins and they were all fine:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/Pins_0001.jpg

So what we need to figure out now is what made the oil silver. Any ideas?

And to give you some retrospective, here are the pics of my two previous diffs.
The first one broke at 5K miles or so:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/08022009163.jpg
BTW, the geometry of the tranny case is made so that the hole will always be made since there is slight bump there and when the shafts grind, they make a hole where the bump is.
Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/DSC_0680.jpg
After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/08022009164.jpg
This is from the outside, the hole from which the oil was draining:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/08022009160.jpg

My solution then was to replace the whole transmission.

The second diff broke at about 8K miles:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/Diff_0002.jpg
Same impact on the tranny case and oil. Except this time I noticed it late and I was running the tranny dry for some time. This resulted was destruction of some bearings and the tranny just got blocked in the middle of the road. Thanks God it was at low speed in the city.
In this case only one shaft came out of the diff, but ALL FOUR RETAINING PINS WERE BROKEN. You could tell it by rotating the diff and all shafts were rotating with the gears indicating that the pins were broken. So if you visually check your diff and all the shafts are inside, don't be fooled. Rotate the diff and see if the shafts are rotating or not.

Very nice pictures, thanks. I hope you can figure it out.

thanks for the update. What would cause the pins to break like that? I'm @ 50k miles and I don't do anything with the car except a few pulls here and there. I don't want to worry about the pins going.

What would cause the pins to break like that?

For most people the answer is: launching. You usually have to launch the car dozens of times with an upgraded clutch before you could break the pins. The stock clutch will fail long before the pins will.

The OP says he has had them break without having ever launched the car. That is not normal.

For most people the answer is: launching. You usually have to launch the car dozens of times with an upgraded clutch before you could break the pins. The stock clutch will fail long before the pins will.

The OP says he has had them break without having ever launched the car. That is not normal.

Thanks! Good thing I never launch my car then.

There have been other people with diff problems who have claimed to have never launched, so just an FYI.

Then again, anytime anyone has a problem, they've never driven their car over 30MPH.

My guess is the silver fluid was just from building the trans, drain all the fluid out which it appears you would have done since you pulled the diff, run it 1k miles and then pull the fluid again, it should be clean. Then refill and enjoy your car!!!!

For most people the answer is: launching. You usually have to launch the car dozens of times with an upgraded clutch before you could break the pins. The stock clutch will fail long before the pins will.

The OP says he has had them break without having ever launched the car. That is not normal.
I've been into this problem for quite a long time, so I collected many opinions (professional and not so profressional), evidence, reports etc.
Most probably launching will NOT be causing this falure. Because what puts stress on center diff is the difference in rotation between front and rear wheles, so any drifting, towing, getting out of snow or mud, downuts etc. will destroy the diff. Launching may have some wheelspin, but very minor and short term.
So, back to the diff. If you check a new diff, the shafts and retaining pins have some (very small) degree of free play. This play gradually wears down the retaining pins. In addition the stock shafts are made of a softer metal than the gears and due to the play the gears eat on the shafts:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/Pins_0002_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/Pins_0003_1.jpg

At some point the the gears get stuck on shafts and snap the worn down pins.
This is also true for the upgraded pins and shafts. They also move a little alowing for free play and also wear the pins (on the picture I posted above you can see that the new retaining pins have some wear on them already.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/romansuh/Evo%20X/Tranny/Pins_0002.jpg

The difference with the upgraded shafts is that they are now stronger than the gears and instead gears eating on shafts, the shafts will be eating on gears. The effect of it is yet to be investigated.
What I did now, is I welded up the upgraded shafts to the diff case thus eliminating any movement and free play which will prevent the retaing pins from wearing and breaking and the shafts from eating on the gears. I did by means of laser welding, wich heats the metal only in very small areas and doesn't change the structure of the material.
I hope this will close the issue once and forever.

I would be disappointed if the "upgraded" units that BR/shep sell fail like the stockers

Launching may have some wheelspin, but very minor and short term.

I'd rather that you presented your data rather than just another opinion. Buschur started offering diff pin upgrades because they broke them from drag racing. If you want to debate whether it was wheel hop or the launch itself that broke the pins then that's nit-picking. There wouldn't be any wheel hop if it wasn't launched...

any stress will cause early failure...

thats what I am reading into these failures...

I'd rather that you presented your data rather than just another opinion. Buschur started offering diff pin upgrades because they broke them from drag racing. If you want to debate whether it was wheel hop or the launch itself that broke the pins then that's nit-picking. There wouldn't be any wheel hop if it wasn't launched...
The problem with your statement is that there are cases when people didn't drag race and still broke the diff (myself included).
Another problem is that it's not possible to determine when exactly it goes. If you read my posts and pictures above, the pins may break at some point but the shafts will still stay inside. And you'll be driving with broken pins without knowing it. Only after a while the shaft wll come out and grind the tranny case. Even then you may not notice it (may be hear some noises) and drive like this until it makes a hole and your oil drains. And it's good if you notice the leak in time otherwise you will continue to drive on dry tranny until it fries. Something like this.
So to say 'I drag raced and my diff broke' is just another guess.
BTW can you please point me to where Buschur was saying that diff falure was caused by drag racing?

I don't think Buschur ever stated drag racing was the cause, but BR's pins were getting worn in his, and he was drag racing his a lot, so, well, we just sort of assumed.

BR's pins were getting worn in his, and he was drag racing his a lot, so, well, we just sort of assumed.

BR and their customers are primarily drag racers. I've never seen him post about any other kind of racing. Like DG, that seems to be BR's thing.

As Hotdog stated, he commented on how the shop car had worn pins after just 20 launches when he went to rebuild the transmission. The implication was that the launching caused it. If you want to disagree with Buschur's opinion then that's up to you.

I've seen very few cases of them breaking outside of launching. I'm skeptical of those. Maybe their car was beat on by the dealer before they bought it. Who knows...my car had 140 miles when I bought it and I have no idea how they treated it.

I just had the BR pins installed...so i guess only time will tell if they work. I would rather not get in an argument with BR over pins breaking if theirs don't work, but who knows.

FYI, this is how my diff pins looked after 26K miles. I have launched the car several times, more than I can count.

http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss168/catalystgod/Clutch%20Old%20Parts%20with%20Install%20Pics/IMG_0800.jpg

The ONLY abuse I did not put my car through is any kind of racing. But I'm a fairly aggressive driver and I'm NOT easy on the Evo by any means. I also drive a lot in snow, rain and hot weather. The car is also my DD.

Those stock or buschur/shep ones?

BR and their customers are primarily drag racers. I've never seen him post about any other kind of racing. Like DG, that seems to be BR's thing.

As Hotdog stated, he commented on how the shop car had worn pins after just 20 launches when he went to rebuild the transmission. The implication was that the launching caused it. If you want to disagree with Buschur's opinion then that's up to you.

I've seen very few cases of them breaking outside of launching. I'm skeptical of those. Maybe their car was beat on by the dealer before they bought it. Who knows...my car had 140 miles when I bought it and I have no idea how they treated it.
I don't want to agree or disagree with anyone. I've done my research, I've figured it out, I took care of it and I shared with the community.
I think pictures I posted speak to themselves: the UPGRADED pins show clear signs of wear after 1000 miles on a car that was mildly driven and never been launched.
I really hope you diff never breaks and I wish preserving it was as easy as never launching...

Those stock or buschur/shep ones?

Stock. The Buschur /Shep ones look like this:

http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss168/catalystgod/Toys%20Toys%20Toys/IMG_0699.jpg

http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss168/catalystgod/Toys%20Toys%20Toys/IMG_0701.jpg

In case you're wondering what the random quarter is doing there, its just for a size reference. :D

FYI, this is how my diff pins looked after 26K miles. I have launched the car several times, more than I can count.



The ONLY abuse I did not put my car through is any kind of racing. But I'm a fairly aggressive driver and I'm NOT easy on the Evo by any means. I also drive a lot in snow, rain and hot weather. The car is also my DD.
Wow! These look like new. Go figure...

I don't want to agree or disagree with anyone. I've done my research, I've figured it out, I took care of it and I shared with the community.
I think pictures I posted speak to themselves: the UPGRADED pins show clear signs of wear after 1000 miles on a car that was mildly driven and never been launched.
I really hope you diff never breaks and I wish preserving it was as easy as never launching...

.....and we appreciate the follow-up. Don't let any of the discussion rub you the wrong way. If you've seen this issue, more than likely, someone else will see it too someday. Thanks for the follow-up and hope it NEVER gives up on you again.

Wow! These look like new. Go figure...

Do I get brownie points for being an awesome driver? :))

Do I get brownie points for being an awesome driver? :))
Yup )))
Well, to be fair, I do track my car once in a while (but not after upgrading the pins). There's a video somewhere on this forum. May that is the issue?

Yup )))
Well, to be fair, I do track my car once in a while (but not after upgrading the pins). There's a video somewhere on this forum. May that is the issue?

It shouldn't be, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. There are guys here who are regular track junkies and have not seen this issue. I am still leaning towards the extreme cold weather in Russia. But I'm just guessing at this point though.

It's not that either, because it was not yet that cold when it broke.

It's not that either, because it was not yet that cold when it broke.

You're just not making it easy for any of us here!!!! LOL.

It's not that either, because it was not yet that cold when it broke.

Did you drive it in winter though? It still could have been significantly weakened if you put it through winters.

I beat the piss outta my car through two Minnesota winters and mine held up fine though, but no launching really...not until just before my motor went.

Did your diff ever break with the stock clutch? Or has all this started happening after the exedy twin?

Did your car pull to one side at all when u realised ur diff went out?

Is there a DIY on how to take the center diff off to check if the pins are bad? I'm new to evos and I have no idea how to do this. I'm experiencing some symptoms of this.

Is there a DIY on how to take the center diff off to check if the pins are bad?

It's inside the transmission and not so trivial of a job. You'd start by pulling the tranny.

It's inside the transmission and not so trivial of a job. You'd start by pulling the tranny.

Yea I knew as far as that but the reason why I ask is because I'm a honda guy. I've worked with honda transmissions before but not awd cars. I'm new to this evo scene.

presumably

1) pull trans off
2) open trans up
3) pull diff out
4) remove diff pins (both bits)
5) push in new pins (not sure if they need to be pressed in??)
6) reassemble diff into trans
7) reassemble trans
8) new clutch :P
9) put trans back in car

presumably

1) pull trans off
2) open trans up
3) pull diff out
4) remove diff pins (both bits)
5) push in new pins (not sure if they need to be pressed in??)
6) reassemble diff into trans
7) reassemble trans
8) new clutch :P
9) put trans back in car

pics would be nice :thumbup: hehe

I can give you a little insight to this as I have the Shep diff as well. The factory diff has a flaw in the design, not only are the pins soft, the are recessed into the housing almost an 1/8 of an inch. This allows the pin to start wiggling side to side ever so slightly, Sheps pins are harder and extend out of the diff so the pins are fully supported by the diff housing, rather that 75% of the diff housing. Shep also machines the case and puts torrington bearings behind the side gears, the side gears are capable of spinning on a bearing surface instead of just oil. The gears break from launching. The side gears heat up and seize to the shaft from having one or two wheels spinning way faster than the others. Donuts etc....., the silver fluid is normal after a build. I said screw it and went to redline in everything and havent looked back.

I must say though, all things being equal, if you have had three failures in 1000 miles, I would start looking at the assembly of the trans rather than the parts that are in it.

After I reassembled my trans, I changed the fluid after 5-600 miles or so. It had silver in it. 2000 miles after that with redline, the silver is very faint, and virtually none on the drain plug at all. Im not a name brand nut hugger by any means, but that redline fluid has made me a believer. Hope this helps a little. You'll get it figured out!

Sheps pins are harder and extend out of the diff so the pins are fully supported by the diff housing, rather that 75% of the diff housing. Shep also machines the case and puts torrington bearings behind the side gears

Fascinating post. I was actually under the impression that Shep modified the stock pins...didn't know that they replaced them.

You get new gear pins and lock pins. Incredible upgrade. I dont look for this to break for some time, knock on wood quick!!

You get new gear pins and lock pins. Incredible upgrade. I dont look for this to break for some time, knock on wood quick!!

How much are the new gear pins and lock pins from Shep? Are these different from Buscher's material wise you think?

you fixed the damage but not the problem. you have to inspected the acd clutch pack(the one thats in the t-case), acd fluid is it low or have bubbles in it was it bled proper after the rebuild. the center diff shouldn't have to do allot of differentiation so it wasn't built to. all the pieces should spin at the same speed if they don't with torque applied you get what you got. i have welded diff pins in hondas and other front wheel drive cars with out any problems ever. i used a regular mig box nothing fancy like laser( your bad ass for that). and in closing i don't think every one here knows that the front diff is in the t-case and the center diff is the trans, there are white pages on this from Mitsubishi.

to bad your in Russia or i'd come over and help.

second thought check everything that is in common, acd pump solenoids lines, everything. there has to be something out of the ordinary causing this

How much are the new gear pins and lock pins from Shep? Are these different from Buscher's material wise you think?


I Dont know really what the difference is between the two companies methods or materials. But if you do research as I did, you would find no failures with Sheps method. I cant say the same for buscher. Buscher has a guy that works for him name Dan. You need to talk to him when you call. I got three different prices for the same kit from Buscher. Then there was machineing if the pins have failed. So it lead me to believe that the same size pins were going back in it if everything was ok.

When John called me he highly recommend starting with a new center diff. Mine was, well beat up bad. I don't know if his prices are still the same, but with a new diff+upgrades and shipping I think I paid around 700.