I was wondering how things are auto crossing EVO in the current BS. I can't see any entries for the last years Solo2 Nationals and I am wondering if anyone tried to run against those cars (S2000s and C4s in particular). From those results it looks like BS was almost 2 sec behind the ESP where DSMs are close or at the top. That would mean that Stock EVO would need to be within a second on the 60 sec course of the nicely prepared ESP DSM and that doesn't sounds impossible!

Here is my reasoning:
Pros


DSMs could have up to 275 HP, so there should be 50 - 70 HP more power for the EVO
Better brakes for the EVOs - well SP allows brake upgrades, so hardware could be the same, but ABS on DSMs is not even close to the EVOs
AWD system is way better for the EVOs - especially EVO X

Cons:


Weight - I am guessing that race weight for the X has to stay in 3500 once you take out everything you don't need. DSMs are in 2900s, so 600 lb of extra weight to carry around!

Equal things:


Both cars could have the same size tires. DSMs use 285s and the same tire can be used on X, which will even give EVO a bit more torque on the wheels due to lower OID then stock. That would drop top speed in the 2nd, but with SST, it doesn't matter at all! DSM do have much wider rims though so more thread will be used over there!

So, from the above things it looks like that X should be able to run close to the times ESP DSMs could do, which would make them top dogs in the BS. At the same time, there were no entries at the Nationals...

I would love to hear your comments!

Thanks!

Fedja

It might be possible, but I just can't see a BS evo X having any chance in hell against a BS s2k with equal drivers. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a shot if thats what you want to do.

I have never attempted, but I don't see any chance of getting 285 r-comps to clear the struts up front in BS configuration with our +38 offset (to have any chance you will have to make use of different wheels or spacers to maximize the offset changes you can make in stock class). Using coilovers, 18x10.5" +15 wheels, -2.5 to -3* camber, I am still close to rubbing.

It might be possible, but I just can't see a BS evo X having any chance in hell against a BS s2k with equal drivers. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a shot if thats what you want to do.
As I said above, I know that S2k is the car that won last National in 2010, but I didn't try to dissect it since I don't know that much about them. What I do know is ESP car and DSMs in particular and that is where the comparison started. At the end of the day, if DSM beats S2k by a second on 60 sec course and EVO runs 50 sec slower then DSM that is all we need regardless which car was used for the BS. :)
On the other note, why do you think that S2k is so superior to the EVO X?
I have never attempted, but I don't see any chance of getting 285 r-comps to clear the struts up front in BS configuration with our +38 offset (to have any chance you will have to make use of different wheels or spacers to maximize the offset changes you can make in stock class). Using coilovers, 18x10.5" +15 wheels, -2.5 to -3* camber, I am still close to rubbing.
First, you are stuck with the stock size rims for the Stock class so getting anything bigger is out of question. What you can change is up to 1/4" of offset in either side. 285s are about an inch wider then stock tires so I don't think that 1/2" is too much to expect to fit under there! Then you could also add 1/4 of that offset I mentioned above, which should be enough space to fit them in. Also. 285s are shorter about 1/2" from the stock tires which helps in the clearance as well. Lastly, I think that I heard that some people have already ran those tires on the stock EVOs.
As of the rim width, other folks have used those 285s on 8" rims with great success, so 8.5" should be no more then good!

Fedja

You don't have to remind me of stock class rules. You didn't read what I wrote about fitting the tires too well. I was merely giving you a data point of an x with more strut clearance than a stock class car can achieve while running 285/30/18 Hoosiers. I also never said the 285 wouldn't fit the wheel.

As it pertains to comparing an ESP 2g dsm to a bs Evo x, the dsm would only be down about 25-30hp and the weight differential should be around 6-700 lbs all while having a better suspension design than the Evo. I have no clue why you think a bs Evo x could hang with it.

But don't let me stand in way of your dreams. Longer shot cars have won nats before.

You don't have to remind me of stock class rules. You didn't read what I wrote about fitting the tires too well. I was merely giving you a data point of an x with more strut clearance than a stock class car can achieve while running 285/30/18 Hoosiers. I also never said the 285 wouldn't fit the wheel.
You are right! I misunderstood what you have said about the tire fitting and I appologies for that! So, basically, you are pretty sure they would not fit in there even with the spacers? I am pretty new to the EVOs this close and personal, so I am just trying to collect as much info while we have so much snow outside and it is too cold to work on the car without the heater in the garage!

As it pertains to comparing an ESP 2g dsm to a bs Evo x, the dsm would only be down about 25-30hp and the weight differential should be around 6-700 lbs all while having a better suspension design than the Evo. I have no clue why you think a bs Evo x could hang with it.
I was just stating the facts that I had about those two cars! I might be wrong about some and I would love is people would correct me for those!
That said, I don't understand why would you say that power difference would be only 25-30HP. The maximum you could get from the 2G in ESP is around 275. Stock EVOs are around 300 HP. With addition of exhaust and air filter, plus 104 octane gas, I believe there would be possible to gain around 330 or maybe even more from the otherwise stock car and that is where I based my comparison on.
On the weight thing, I am not sure how did you get that 700 lb end of range! The SE that I have is stock around 3600 and without the spare tire and lighter exhaust, it should be in the 3500s. That compared to the 2G DSM that can go to mid 2900s gets to be around 600 lb or so.
As of the suspension design, front end is probably better on the DSM then on EVO, but not that much! Get a good set of remote reservoir double adjustable shocks/struts with nicely tuned high speed compression should bring things a bit closer. Now add around 300 lb of the pressure to aid the weaker springs and things will be much better then the stock. Now, stock numbers between the DSM and EVO are quite far apart and even though I don't thing that BS EVO coud reach 1.6 G that DSM can pull, it shouldn't be too far behind!
But don't let me stand in way of your dreams. Longer shot cars have won nats before.
This is far from being a dream! As I said, I need more info on the capability of the car in order to make a decision on whether to try this or not with this car! For a long time I was hoping to get to try one of the stock classes and since SE is a daily driver it comes as a first choice. But, if this thing can't fit 285s with inverted crash bolts for maximum camber in the front, then thing would get a bit tougher then I was hoping to have! There are still 275s that would be a second choice with loss of 1/2" of the thread, but it would still be better then the stock size.

Thanks for the info, and again, sorry for missing the part of the original post!


Fedja

Not a big deal, just wanted to clear that part up. :)

As for the power issue, yah I figured an esp prepped 2g could make 250-260whp give or take some and an evo x (with its only power mods being a catback and filter with stock tune) I can only see making 270-280whp maybe...

I am still unsure if they will fit with the stock wheels as I haven't tried that setup... If I get motivation, I will mount my spare 285 a6 on one of my stock wheels and check the fitment with my coilovers if that helps (would probably be best if someone tried it with stock style struts though).

That 600lbs will be pretty tough to overcome in my opinion, and a 95 no frills car should be capable of sub 2900lbs in esp trim. And you gotta remember, the esp car will have really nice double's on it as well. I will say the rear suspension/ rear end is much better than a DSM's, but the strut front does make it inferior IMO to the dsm's independent front even with its less than optimal geometry.

Another thing you have to contend with in BS will be the GXP's and they will make probably close to the same power as an evo x and can fit 285's also, but are again lighter than us.

For a DD, I see STU as the best option. But again, you must put my opinion on this into perspective as I have always been critical of the X in any class in auto-x at the national level as I just see the VIII's and IX's having a large advantage under the same regulations in the same class. That being said, I could see a X having a shot in SM if built correctly (it wouldn't be cheap haha) :)

As for the power issue, yah I figured an esp prepped 2g could make 250-260whp give or take some and an evo x (with its only power mods being a catback and filter with stock tune) I can only see making 270-280whp maybe...
Actually, the numbers I was quoting where flywheel numbers. T25 can not squeeze more then 275 HP no matter what you do to it when using 110 octane gas. That would bring it down to just around 200 hp at the wheels if so. There is some new hope if tuned to use E85, which apparently caries a bit more oxygen so it is not required to have as much to start with, but that is still to be tested. ESP WRXs seem to be having a nice power increase with that stuff.
I am still unsure if they will fit with the stock wheels as I haven't tried that setup... If I get motivation, I will mount my spare 285 a6 on one of my stock wheels and check the fitment with my coilovers if that helps (would probably be best if someone tried it with stock style struts though).
I think this might be crucial for any chance to be competitive in there! As I mentioned, 275 are also a good choice which is a bit narrower, but I'm still hopeful that those would fit there with use of full spacers! But, until some warmer days, there will be no way for me to try it! If someone else can do this test it would be great!!
That 600lbs will be pretty tough to overcome in my opinion, and a 95 no frills car should be capable of sub 2900lbs in esp trim.
Well the those two that we have ran so far came down to around 29500 lb and that seem to be pretty much it. Anything below 2900 lb would be a miracle in ESP trim.
And you gotta remember, the esp car will have really nice double's on it as well. I will say the rear suspension/ rear end is much better than a DSM's, but the strut front does make it inferior IMO to the dsm's independent front even with its less than optimal geometry.
Actually, I have triple Penske's under there and anything weaker than those is waste of runs!! They are worth every penny they where paid for!!
Another thing you have to contend with in BS will be the GXP's and they will make probably close to the same power as an evo x and can fit 285's also, but are again lighter than us.
True!! They are also pretty fast cars! For one reason or the other S2k seem to be the car to beat, but that doesn't exclude any other of the top cars in the class. But, since I don't know much about those cars, I decided to compare EVO with a DSM which is much more familiar to me!
For a DD, I see STU as the best option. But again, you must put my opinion on this into perspective as I have always been critical of the X in any class in auto-x at the national level as I just see the VIII's and IX's having a large advantage under the same regulations in the same class.
The greatest advantage I see with X is the SST! Its ability to shift so quickly 2-3 and back, while the car is not upset by any means is the great asset in this fight. ESP DSMs have a tendency to stay at the rev limiter from time to time (even with 8k redline), which is from the SST point of view loss of time! Now, when you encounter another fact that T25 doesn't have much of anything passed 6500 RPM that means that DSMs actually slowing down when getting closer to the end. At the same time SST car would actually accelerate even more.
Another very important part is an AWD system that X has, which I think is better then any other EVO in US or any DSM for that matter! I have yet to drive a car that feels as good as this one in the stock trim when going through the turns!
That being said, I could see a X having a shot in SM if built correctly (it wouldn't be cheap haha) :)
Been there! Done that! Thank you very much, but I needed my life back!! Even though it was fun to thinker with things every weekend and some week days, after a while you just realized that there are other things that you might enjoy as well as being a grease monkey. And than there is that money thing as well, but who cares about that part...or maybe this is just that age thing...again!! :)

Fedja

If an esp 2g isn't making at LEAST 220whp (and more wtq and that should be considered the low end), something is not optimized in the power setup. SP rules allow a good amount of power mods. E85 would allow a slight increase in power over c16 but about the same.

I hate you for running Penske's. :( I want some!

SM/SSM/XP are my favorite classes. I run SM (evo 8) now, and am in the process of building an XP evo 8, but that has a year or two before it will be able to come out. I hate how restricted the rules are in SM :) Was that your 96/196 ESP talon at nats this year? You can take Madarash ;) That car just seems like it would be a lot more fun to race than a BS car bleh.

If an esp 2g isn't making at LEAST 220whp (and more wtq and that should be considered the low end), something is not optimized in the power setup. SP rules allow a good amount of power mods. E85 would allow a slight increase in power over c16 but about the same.
The main problem here is how much air can go through the T25! Torque numbers might be close to the 300 but at the flywheel again. And that would be around 4k RPMs. Everything after that is lower and it is falling off quickly due to the turbo flow restrictions.
Than there is that thing about destroying them every few events, which is not fun at all. Now the lubrication is similar to the stock one and we are hoping that would bring more life to those poor little things.

I hate you for running Penske's. :( I want some!
Just give a call to the Guy Ankeny and tell him you want my setup and you are good to go (as long as you run a DSM, of course)!! They where around $1,600 back in 2001 when I got them, but they are worth every penny you pay for them!! I would never go to a serious racing without similar setup - it just doesn't make sense to leave that much time out there with inferior shocks!
SM/SSM/XP are my favorite classes. I run SM (evo 8) now, and am in the process of building an XP evo 8, but that has a year or two before it will be able to come out. I hate how restricted the rules are in SM :) Was that your 96/196 ESP talon at nats this year? You can take Madarash ;) That car just seems like it would be a lot more fun to race than a BS car bleh.
That is the car that has some of my race parts (shocks in particular and actually it had my engine as well). But, I was not there last year. I retired from racing back in 2002 after braking axle and hub on my SM DSM at that time. Then, I managed to get out again 4 years later in 2006, where we blew a turbo on the first ran of the day 2, so we didn't finished as we had hoped. I still managed a trophy though, but I ended up running a Mustang, which was not fun. My best time was that first run in the first hear on the semi cold tires and about 150 HP in the engine. Oh well!

Fedja