If you go off/off on TC, does the "mode" then matter at all? Just thinking about that, if Snow Gravel and Tarmac refer to the sensitivity to wheel slip if you turn TC off/off doesn't that negate the surface mode change? Or have I gone full retard?

Full Retard.

Excellent. So......what am I missing?

Full off disables throttle cut and brake assist. The center diff is still doing it's job and responding to the different modes.

I have no idea, just wanted to call you a Full Retard <3

Full off disables throttle cut and brake assist. The center diff is still doing it's job and responding to the different modes.

Thanks.

I have no idea, just wanted to call you a Full Retard <3

:thumbup:

This explains it pretty well..
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25390

Turning the ASC off once (throttle kill override) and ASC off / off (throttle kill - ABD override) causes the ACD and AYC clutch paks to work quite a bit harder, the logic being that you have taken away two sources of braking force from the S-AWC system. You can never completely remove the throttle kill and ABD, but they go into a very passive state.

The way the ACD and AYC respond when ASC is off or off/off varies:

Tarmac: The ACD becomes very passive and dosen't step in until things get very crazy. Allows up to 20% delta between front and rear wheels. Applies a high force momentary clamp (like a nudge) to stabilize. The AYC is very active in contrast. It is smoothly applying clamping to either rear wheel during corner entry but mostly on corner exit. Think big, sweeping, linear actuation that is not as "abrupt" as the ACD. The AYC is concerned with creating a false polar moment in order to effect under and oversteer.

Gravel: ACD is going to allow 10% slip and will react more quickly to spikes in front rear wheel delta. The actuation pressure to the clutch will also be more smooth and linear in comparison to tarmac. The AYC is a little more cautious and passive, becoming very concerned with limiting wheel delta between RH and LH rather than artificially creating a polar moment.

Snow: ACD is not going to allow wheel slip and reacts with a strong, linear almost 100% clamped forced all the time during any wheel slip. The AYC is also in lockdown, only concerned with maintaining 0% delta.

Turning the ASC off once (throttle kill override) and ASC off / off (throttle kill - ABD override) causes the ACD and AYC clutch paks to work quite a bit harder, the logic being that you have taken away two sources of braking force from the S-AWC system. You can never completely remove the throttle kill and ABD, but they go into a very passive state.

The way the ACD and AYC respond when ASC is off or off/off varies:

Tarmac: The ACD becomes very passive and dosen't step in until things get very crazy. Allows up to 20% delta between front and rear wheels. Applies a high force momentary clamp (like a nudge) to stabilize. The AYC is very active in contrast. It is smoothly applying clamping to either rear wheel during corner entry but mostly on corner exit. Think big, sweeping, linear actuation that is not as "abrupt" as the ACD. The AYC is concerned with creating a false polar moment in order to effect under and oversteer.

Gravel: ACD is going to allow 10% slip and will react more quickly to spikes in front rear wheel delta. The actuation pressure to the clutch will also be more smooth and linear in comparison to tarmac. The AYC is a little more cautious and passive, becoming very concerned with limiting wheel delta between RH and LH rather than artificially creating a polar moment.

Snow: ACD is not going to allow wheel slip and reacts with a strong, linear almost 100% clamped forced all the time during any wheel slip. The AYC is also in lockdown, only concerned with maintaining 0% delta.thanks for the detailed explanation :thumbup:

Can you explain Delta?

So if you want to pitch the tires out behind you-- go TARMAC when it's snowing?

Snow mode best for launching?

Can you explain Delta?

So if you want to pitch the tires out behind you-- go TARMAC when it's snowing?

Snow mode best for launching?

:bowlol:

srsly :(

what comes to my mind is delta = change.

Can you explain Delta?

So if you want to pitch the tires out behind you-- go TARMAC when it's snowing?

Snow mode best for launching?

Delta is the difference in front and rear wheel speeds, it's called that in the tables that control it. It's also expressed as rate of change in most physics and science.

Not so sure what your asking about pitching tires out in snow, but if you mean power oversteer then it would make sense to use Tramac mode in low traction situations for a tail happy ride.

It's debatable if Gravel or Snow is the best for launching. Snow puts a huge amount of stress into the driveline on a decent road. A little wheelspin in Gravel mode is pretty acceptable in an AWD car (this is not perceivable by the driver, but is theoretically there). I think most drag racers experiment with the ACD based on track conditions and their own engine setups.

Snow mode does guarantee that the most amount of power will make it to the road out of all the setups in a straight line.

Turning the ASC off once (throttle kill override) and ASC off / off (throttle kill - ABD override) causes the ACD and AYC clutch paks to work quite a bit harder, the logic being that you have taken away two sources of braking force from the S-AWC system. You can never completely remove the throttle kill and ABD, but they go into a very passive state.

The way the ACD and AYC respond when ASC is off or off/off varies:

Tarmac: The ACD becomes very passive and dosen't step in until things get very crazy. Allows up to 20% delta between front and rear wheels. Applies a high force momentary clamp (like a nudge) to stabilize. The AYC is very active in contrast. It is smoothly applying clamping to either rear wheel during corner entry but mostly on corner exit. Think big, sweeping, linear actuation that is not as "abrupt" as the ACD. The AYC is concerned with creating a false polar moment in order to effect under and oversteer.

Gravel: ACD is going to allow 10% slip and will react more quickly to spikes in front rear wheel delta. The actuation pressure to the clutch will also be more smooth and linear in comparison to tarmac. The AYC is a little more cautious and passive, becoming very concerned with limiting wheel delta between RH and LH rather than artificially creating a polar moment.

Snow: ACD is not going to allow wheel slip and reacts with a strong, linear almost 100% clamped forced all the time during any wheel slip. The AYC is also in lockdown, only concerned with maintaining 0% delta.

So these are when ASC is Off Off?

Can you explain fully what they do when ASC is On?

So these are when ASC is Off Off?

Can you explain fully what they do when ASC is On?

:p

It's the same with ASC on or off, the ACD and AYC operate the same way. There could be minor differences but I have never been able to log much of a difference in my own tests, measuring proportioning valve voltage.

Mitsu themselves outline the AYC and ACD operation as having most of it's effectiveness at moderate driving conditions, meaning it has the most usefulness when the car is below it's traction limit.

At the limit, ABD and throttle kill are the most effective means of not flying off the road. the AYC turns from a torque vectoring device into an ABD closer to the limit, meaning it gets less aggressive the more G's and the more slip is detected.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1370/sawcintegratedcontrol.jpg

It's the same with ASC on or off, the ACD and AYC operate the same way. There could be minor differences but I have never been able to log much of a difference in my own tests, measuring proportioning valve voltage.

Mitsu themselves outline the AYC and ACD operation as having most of it's effectiveness at moderate driving conditions, meaning it has the most usefulness when the car is below it's traction limit.

At the limit, ABD and throttle kill are the most effective means of not flying off the road. the AYC turns from a torque vectoring device into an ABD closer to the limit, meaning it gets less aggressive the more G's and the more slip is detected.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1370/sawcintegratedcontrol.jpg

You need to get "off" the forums, not get "off" on the forums, and go out and actually drive your car and find out how these charts are complete...

http://pointriderrepublican.typepad.com/Horse20Poop20sm.jpg

What about throttle cut? In each mode, when does it come into place? I know from personal experience, throttle cut comes in very quickly in tarmac settings. With my power levels, the tarmac setting give me throttle cut all the time. Drives me nuts.

What about throttle cut? In each mode, when does it come into place? I know from personal experience, throttle cut comes in very quickly in tarmac settings. With my power levels, the tarmac setting give me throttle cut all the time. Drives me nuts.

With one push off, "ASC Off", I never feel throttle cut at all, regardless the loads, pressures, or anything.

By modes, I mean Tarmac, Gravel, and Snow with ASC on.

I don't like having to turn ASC off every time I turn the car on.

What about throttle cut? In each mode, when does it come into place? I know from personal experience, throttle cut comes in very quickly in tarmac settings. With my power levels, the tarmac setting give me throttle cut all the time. Drives me nuts.

Even with the ASC off?

Answered in my previous post... but ASC On.

You need to get "off" the forums, not get "off" on the forums, and go out and actually drive your car and find out how these charts are complete...



Fair enough, I don't like marketing posters either for real explanations, but all this knowledge is currently on the front of what we know and don't know so it's ripe for positive discussion, not just harsh comments.

I'll get a little more technical on the theory: so people have been reading the ACD tables for some time now. Here is one example of a table that deals with lockup reduction on decel:

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5513/acdgfrocemaptarmacdecel.jpg


This is off a 9, not a X. Latest theory: Accel and Decel G force numbers correspond directly to Hydraulic unit (ACD pump circuit) voltages, 0-4v, might not even be labeled correctly. The idea corrently floating around (proposed by Malocas on the other forum) is that the pattern in voltages directly corresponds to ramp angles of a mechanical LSD (1.5 way). Very sound theory IMO so far because accel and decel properties in terms of these ramp angles seems to line up with these voltages (relative to actuation pressure of the ACD circuit).

So the point is that these voltages I have logged do not change when I switch around the ASC off or off/off. They are different, but the ASC does not seem to make much of an impact if any on the ACD operation. I am still working on trying to understand how it effects the AYC, but my initial thought is that it doesn't effect it much either.

Yes, the ASC itself is still a black box. But consider this, regardless of any of these systems (ACD, AYC, ABD, ASC throttle kill, etc.) they ALL are basically a braking system............

Great Info. Looks like they were testing your knowledge on the sawc with all
The questions lol.

ASC - throttle cut
AyC - torque vectoring
ABD - auto braking

Correct? Yes im that dumb.

Yeah, that is right. Technically ASC encompasses throttle cut and the ABD. To be letter for letter on the Acronym:

1) ASC : Automatic Stability Control : Throttle Cut + Automatic Brake Differential
2) AYC: Automatic Yaw Control : Torque Vectoring
3) ACD: Automatic Center Differential : front and rear wheel speed difference brake

The scrutiny in this thread for claims made about ASC has to do with the fact that the ASC is a black box right now. We just don't know how and when it works beyond what the manual and some Mitsu tech papers claim. We can't even read the ASC codes at this point.

What we can tell through logs and reading rom's is that the S-AWC isn't much effected by the ASC settings, I have some proof of this.

Answered in my previous post... but ASC On.

Golden, you shouldn't be seeing throttle cut on the streets. It only comes in during hard turns with the asc on. Mode (tarmac, gravel, etc) will have no impact on it.
On tracks, asc off/off is really the only way to drive, otherwise the damn car fights everything you want it to do. On the street, I really want to know how the hell you're triggering throttle cut.

well, if you try to launch at all with ASC on, you will see throttle cut. You may also see it if you chirp tires on a shift. But yeah, I think the consensus is that the different S-AWC surface specific modes are completely separate from ASC's throttle cut functionality

^^ aah I could see on launches. I never launch on the street, but I guess that could make sense.

it doesn't even have to be a full on 2-step. Even I (with my basically stock motor and stock tune) sometimes see throttle cut when I'm doing what I like to call a power takeoff (revving to 2 or 3k and then slipping the clutch a bit until hitting boost) such as when pulling into traffic or just going around a curve in a spirited manner.

funny, i've never seen that. I guess I don't really drive enough on the street to notice. And when I do i'm careful to do nothing aggressive lest the cops decide my car looks like a fun one to pull over

ASC/ABD controls throttle cut/braking in ADDITION to the ACD locking the diffs?
AYC controls torque vectoring in ADDITION to ACD?

If the surface modes arent affected by ASC modes then they seem to purely address ACD position/state?

Am I still on track given what we know?

Wheel spin is handles with first ACD, then AYC then ASC/ABD. True?

ASC/ABD controls throttle cut/braking in ADDITION to the ACD locking the diffs?
AYC controls torque vectoring in ADDITION to ACD?

If the surface modes arent affected by ASC modes then they seem to purely address ACD position/state?

Am I still on track given what we know?

Wheel spin is handles with first ACD, then AYC then ASC/ABD. True?

Umm... I think you might be slightly confused.

Well shit. Just when i think i MIGHT understand.....

ASC/ABD controls throttle cut/braking in ADDITION to the ACD locking the diffs?
AYC controls torque vectoring in ADDITION to ACD?

If the surface modes arent affected by ASC modes then they seem to purely address ACD position/state?

Am I still on track given what we know?

Wheel spin is handles with first ACD, then AYC then ASC/ABD. True?


Think of them as independent systems looking at similar information from a group of the same sensors. They all are basically braking systems. The hard part is to understand that they all work differently based on the situation.

Think of it as four different types of brakes:


1) ACD - brakes center diff to help govern and normalize differences between front and rear wheel speeds

2) AYC - brakes power sent to rear wheels to torque vector and normalize rear wheels speeds

3) ASC throttle kill - not technically a "brake" but kills throttle and has the effect of a brake on engine power

4) ASC brake differential - literally the ABS braking system used to govern and normalize wheel speeds


They are all trying to do the same thing differently. Why do we need 4 different types of brakes working simultaneously? Because each has a certain application where it is very effective and each has a significant time when it does not do much at all. Numbers (3) and (4) can be turned off, to a degree, where as the ACD and AYC are not capable of being turned off unless you unplug things.

Sorry to go back to marketing poo-poo but this chart is easier to understand.........

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2681/sawcintegratedmanagment.jpg

Got it. So was i right in saying that the surface modes only really utilize the ACD? Thanks for being patient, im trying to understand.

The most evidence points to the surface modes mostly effecting the mostly the ACD but also the AYC. They are locking programs based on time and slip. The latest theory, although it's very unproven, is that the parameters governing the ACD and AYC are emulating characteristics of a mechanical limited slip diff, 1.5 way. More on this as work goes on.........

So then going Off/Off WOULD theoretically affect the surface modes since that mostly turns off AYC.

I wonder how we can get some empirical evidence if table proof isn't available.

Golden, you shouldn't be seeing throttle cut on the streets. It only comes in during hard turns with the asc on. It's very easy easy to activate:

Drive into a 20MPH corner at 35, HARD on brakes, flip the wheel while stomping on the throttle - the yellow skid thingie lights up on the dash and there is no engine power.

No power = throttle cut

So then going Off/Off WOULD theoretically affect the surface modes since that mostly turns off AYC.

I wonder how we can get some empirical evidence if table proof isn't available.

OFF OFF turns off the ASC (stability control), not AYC (yaw control). I think this is where your confusions comes from, since your thread title also confuses the two.

So then why does it SAY AYC off when you turn it off? I know that neither are fully "off" but are mostly off. Not trying to argue, trying to understand.

So then why does it SAY AYC off when you turn it off? I know that neither are fully "off" but are mostly off. Not trying to argue, trying to understand.
It doesn't say AYC off, it's ASC. Go look at your button...

Yes. ASC on the button. One push and dash says ASC. Off/Off says "AYC OFF" and warning light.

Yes. ASC on the button. One push and dash says ASC. Off/Off says "AYC OFF" and warning light.

Odd. I have never seen 'AYC OFF' on my display. Of course I've got a 2008... Care to grab a pic?

I'm at work right but but I'd be glad to when I get off. :D

The ASC off light comes on for either, only difference is the "full retard" graphic with the car and swirvy lines comes on for a second. There is no "AYC off" indicator or graphic, far as I know.

Took a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlXDexNY-CE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Edit: this is my first YouTube upload lol

Interesting to see in the 2010 display it has that graphic now. Did not know this.

Here is an old thread that talks about this same issue, lol:

http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34152

Here is my explanation: AYC always has functionality in terms of it's twin clutch paks, it cannot be just be an open diff. The S-AWC indicator still lights up, and when I log proportioning valve voltages I get very similar values. Please note I am logging directly off the circuits, not through Evoscan.

With the Evo X, they added a AYC brake functionality. This is different from the "torque difference management" functionality. Basically, the AYC has two capabilities:

1) Brake force control (yaw control, artificially generating a polar moment i.e. understeer and oversteer)
2) RH and LH wheel speed difference (torque difference management, i.e. wheel speed differences between the left and right wheel)

So when you hit ASC off/off, you loose number 1. Number 2 is always active. "Torque Vectoring" covers both above functions, so it is another confusing marketing term.

Problem I have is logging this difference. What I can say is that the difference is SLIGHT. When I first logged it, mind was blown. How can there is little difference between proportioning valve voltages when in one case your trying to send power to (or away) from the inside rear wheel based on oversteer / understeer conditions compared to just trying to prevent gross wheel speed differences? Thought it would be bigger difference than a tenth of a volt. These are parking lot tests with a skidpad like circle and then a sharp figure 8, no more than 40mph.

The only insight I can give to this problem is in a JSAE paper that says the "Brake force control (artificial yaw)" requires a very small amount of force......

I'm guessing that it's more of a semantics issue. It sounds like Mitsu considers the 'braking' function of ASC to be part of the AYC. This makes sense when you consider that the purpose is to keep the car oriented according to driver intent and that means controlling the yaw of the car (yaw being the car's angle with relation to direction of travel). And it doesn't say 'AYC OFF', but rather 'AYC Brake OFF', which is in line with turning off the braking of individual wheels for the purpose of stabilizing the car.

Meaning overhype basically?

Meaning overhype basically?

What I mean is that the fact that on 2010+ it says 'AYC Brake Off' doesn't negate the original definition given of 'ASC OFF OFF'. Instead it's just saying the same thing with slightly different terminology.

My post was directed at disco, sorry for the confusion as I didn't see yours.

Yeah, the terminology is very confusing. Mitsu calls it "AYC brake", which is a really misleading term. It should be called "artificial yaw" or "polar moment generator" or something that gets more technical on what it does.

To add to that confusing, there is the actual ABD (automatic brake differential) which is the ASC's ABS control. This system can apply the brake (actual vehicle brakes) which is completely outside the AYC's system.

So, to make it even more confusing, lol:


ASC on = Throttle kill ON, ABD ON, AYC Brake ON

ASC off = Throttle kill OFF, ABD ON, AYC Brake ON

ASC off / off = Throttle kill OFF, ABD OFF, AYC Brake OFF


The ACD and AYC are always ON in the sense of wheel speed governing.

Actually that's helpful. So the AYC function that stays on regardless is the torque vector, meaning with all ASC off its prone to oversteer but that's it. Lol so all systems off and its STILL better than the STi and its understeering mechanical diff.

Wow, great info Disco. Love this thread!

I wouldn't say "prone" to oversteer but it might be easier to say that it can artificially try to oversteer more.

I've been trying to work with some guys in Eastern Europe who have taken the ACD / AYC tuning to the next level. They are really getting amazing results modifying these tables, imagine being able to dial in handling exactly the way you want it on a laptop.

They do it all the time in racing but it involves pulling the mech LSD and disassembling it, chaning ramp angles, tires, suspension settings, swaybars, etc. We might be able to do it with a table.

Anti roll via tuning? How the fhck.

Anti roll via tuning? How the fhck.

Theoretically i think it's possible. When roll/roll over is detected or imminent the suspension not only stiffens but hydraulically raises. I've been thinking about this for years. Different than ACD tuning but still.

The dash on the 2010 says "AYC Brake OFF" because it no longer uses the car's disk brakes to control Yaw. The clutches in the rear diff still work. I does not say "AYC OFF" nor does it say "AYC Clutches OFF".


As for throttle cut, I get throttle cut in turns and straight lines on the street. I can spin all 4 wheels in 1st gear by flooring it at 4000 RPM. Once on a steep hill on a gravel road, I couldn't even take off from a stop. It was horrible.

I know 100% that each mode has different thresholds for throttle cut. It's very easy to test on icy roads.

The dash on the 2010 says "AYC Brake OFF" because it no longer uses the car's disk brakes to control Yaw. The clutches in the rear diff still work. I does not say "AYC OFF" nor does it say "AYC Clutches OFF".


As for throttle cut, I get throttle cut in turns and straight lines on the street. I can spin all 4 wheels in 1st gear by flooring it at 4000 RPM. Once on a steep hill on a gravel road, I couldn't even take off from a stop. It was horrible.

I know 100% that each mode has different thresholds for throttle cut. It's very easy to test on icy roads.

Yeah, that would support every test I have done on the proportioning valve voltage so far, there is just no real difference between the readings. So when Mitsu says "AYC Brake", they are referring to the disk brakes creating an artificial polar moment (yaw moment).

Question is, when does the AYC (by itself) generate a polar moment (yaw moment)? So far the test points me to believe it does this either all the time or none of the time, regardless of ASC setting. Still have to pigtail and log the directional valve, maybe this will be the clue.

If you install some nice "race" brake pads, go to the track and leave ASC on, you can lock up your inside rear tire going around a corner without touching your brake pedal. It's a very odd feeling. Hold that ASC button down for a bit and no more issue.

So when Mitsu says "AYC Brake", they are referring to the disk brakes creating an artificial polar moment (yaw moment).


Like an LSD brake.

If you install some nice "race" brake pads, go to the track and leave ASC on, you can lock up your inside rear tire going around a corner without touching your brake pedal. It's a very odd feeling. Hold that ASC button down for a bit and no more issue.

Basically auto braking. I'd rather just have torque transferred than the car start BRAKING for me....this isn't Forza 4 hahaha

Question is, when does the AYC (by itself) generate a polar moment (yaw moment)? So far the test points me to believe it does this either all the time or none of the time, regardless of ASC setting. Still have to pigtail and log the directional valve, maybe this will be the clue.

I have no idea on how the AYC works on the X but on all the other evo's from the 4-9 it distributes the torque between the rear wheels or should I say it can put up to 87% extra bias to any of the rear wheels that has more grip/ road speed

Lee

On the 8/9 it's a fairly easy to understand map that takes into account vehicle speed and steering angle. Don't know what the table looks like for an X.

It goes to 100% on the table. It's vectoring all the time, which seems to make sense because I get the same actuation voltage regardless of the ASC setting.

My theory on the "AYC Brake" or "ABD" is that it works like and LSD brake and can actuate a lot faster than the clutches can, giving it a jolt to help it shift the torque. Where the table is or how it is controlled is a big mystery.

People say it oversteers way more with one touch off and in general the consensus is the X oversteers way more than older Evo's, so this AYC brake is probably the difference. We know it's working like crazy on the track because the rear pads are so worn down and hot. Some just don't deal with it and turn it completely off, I'm working on cooling the rear brakes better.

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5343/aycmap.jpg

It states 100 but this is not the case 100=87% and these are the tables that I am trying to correct in the 7/8/9.

Because my X is an RS I dont have the AYC or ABD so I have never felt this on my car, one thing it will have tho is a centre diff delay timer somewhere in the rom as I cant see them going backwards, this will also play a part in the why the car feels when decelerating.

You might have seen some of my posts on GeekMapped, Lee5 ?

Cheers
Lee

awesome post... so i learned a little

seems like from a dig ppl with high hp should run in Gravel mode

Here are 2 RR graphs from an E7, the X will work on the same kind of principle on the way the ACD works when accelerating.

The graphs show power at the front and rear wheels

The 1st graph is a car with pump failure as you can see the power is more or less 50/50

The 2nd is car set in Tarmac mode, you can see the car send more power to front wheel, I will test other modes if people are interested to see the results ?

Cheers
Lee

This is fascinating, and is making me fall so much more in love with this car. Sub'd for a thread that shows how much we do and don't know about this car.

And to think I considered an '07 Sti!! Wow I made the right move. Anti-sway through tuning in the future, and a car that seems more technically advanced in terms of awc than an f-16 is at flying.

Here are 2 RR graphs from an E7, the X will work on the same kind of principle on the way the ACD works when accelerating.

The graphs show power at the front and rear wheels

The 1st graph is a car with pump failure as you can see the power is more or less 50/50

The 2nd is car set in Tarmac mode, you can see the car send more power to front wheel, I will test other modes if people are interested to see the results ?

Cheers
Lee

Sorry Lee, didn't recognize your name at first. Know your stuff from geekmapped well.

Your tables in the screenshot have names that make way more sense to me. The latest one I have just has no meaning:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4574/acdaycrom.jpg

It would make way more sense if accel maps had a front to rear speed difference and the lockup reducer A maps had some kind of reference to pump voltage rather than G force.

Do you have a copy of the rom and xml your using? I would love to check it out.

I think many people, including myself, would be super interested in the dyno comps of tarmac/gravel/snow. It would prove/disprove a lot of theories.

Sorry Lee, didn't recognize your name at first. Know your stuff from geekmapped well.

Your tables in the screenshot have names that make way more sense to me. The latest one I have just has no meaning:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4574/acdaycrom.jpg

It would make way more sense if accel maps had a front to rear speed difference and the lockup reducer A maps had some kind of reference to pump voltage rather than G force.

Do you have a copy of the rom and xml your using? I would love to check it out.

I think many people, including myself, would be super interested in the dyno comps of tarmac/gravel/snow. It would prove/disprove a lot of theories.

Hi Chris,

Will get some testing done next week, I will also get a tarmac reading form an STT if people want it, I will also get a tarmac reading from my X as well.

I am still working on the tables for the 8/9 rom as the sprint car is a 7 so I did this xml 1st, its still not 100% yet I know what I want to do but just can work it out yet, if you know what I mean :confused2:

Cheers
Lee

Are you talking about the older gen Evos as a comparison or a means to understanding the X? Haven't things changed alot and don't we have MORE spaghetti than the 7-9?

Are you talking about the older gen Evos as a comparison or a means to understanding the X? Haven't things changed alot and don't we have MORE spaghetti than the 7-9?

I understand a lot about the 7-9 but have never looked at the modes on a dyno, I know its only straight line stuff but it should show up any slip/bias in the system as it should with the X as the X should work on the same lines, yes its going to be more technical with the extra ABD etc but I will have a look at the wiring to see where it goes and to what ecu, I will also have chat with my mate at Ralliart to see if there has been any ACD updates and see if he has or can get more info on the set up.

Cheers
Lee

Sweet. :D Looking forward to your results. :D

If you go off/off on TC, does the "mode" then matter at all? Just thinking about that, if Snow Gravel and Tarmac refer to the sensitivity to wheel slip if you turn TC off/off doesn't that negate the surface mode change? Or have I gone full retard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Yi3S8Nfxc

Hi Chris,

Will get some testing done next week, I will also get a tarmac reading form an STT if people want it, I will also get a tarmac reading from my X as well.

I am still working on the tables for the 8/9 rom as the sprint car is a 7 so I did this xml 1st, its still not 100% yet I know what I want to do but just can work it out yet, if you know what I mean :confused2:

Cheers
Lee

Sounds good Lee,

Quick sketch, prediction on the look of the dyno charts in different modes:

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9140/tarmacgravelsnowdyno.jpg

i dont know what you guys mean when you are referring about AYC brake?
Can you elaborate that for me?
I am not a tuner i just using it , but i have no clue what is that mean at all.
ACD and AYC brain as far as i know has nothing has to do with each other. they are working completely separate to do separate tasks. The AYC is basically a "smart" LSD = electronically controlled. There is no adjustment on it. That "brain" is placed in the the diff house and has 0 connection to the ACD - steering sensor or the Engine ECU. AYC as a unit does not make changes based on the ACD program or set up.
SO i am not sure what is the AYC brake means, i never heard of that before.

Thanks Rob

Info on AYC Brake is hidden, but there is plenty of evidence. Notice on the diagram that the ABS Ecu (ASC ecu) talks back and forth, it's not just WSS data going to the SAWC ecu.

According to this, the "brake control command" is coming from the SAWC Ecu, and the WSS is coming in from the ASC Ecu, plus possible other info.

We know there are missing tables, I think there is a table that must control this brake command. Hopefully they find it in the X SAWC rom.

There is no brain in the AYC, it's all through the SAWC Ecu. AYC table is posted above as an example. The AYC and ACD seem very independent but they are connected by the hydraulic unit (meaning the AYC ACD pump, not the ABS pump) and SAWC Ecu. AYC seems limited to steering angle and speed, but we don't know for sure.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8990/aycbrakecontrol.png

Info on AYC Brake is hidden, but there is plenty of evidence. Notice on the diagram that the ABS Ecu (ASC ecu) talks back and forth, it's not just WSS data going to the SAWC ecu.

According to this, the "brake control command" is coming from the SAWC Ecu, and the WSS is coming in from the ASC Ecu, plus possible other info.

We know there are missing tables, I think there is a table that must control this brake command. Hopefully they find it in the X SAWC rom.

There is no brain in the AYC, it's all through the SAWC Ecu. AYC table is posted above as an example. The AYC and ACD seem very independent but they are connected by the hydraulic unit and SAWC Ecu. AYC seems limited to steering angle and speed, but we don't know for sure.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8990/aycbrakecontrol.png


So then AYC shouldn't work without the factory ecu, according to you, since has no brains, and wouldn't get any commands.
I am running on after market ECU and ACD unit which doesnt have the S-AWC system at all, mainly we run that for better tune results and to get rid of the ABS system. THe AYC works as a charm. Like the Older EVos.

S-AWC does control (over power) the AYC with a brakes system on the car (ABS) Which is the direct difference between the CT9A evos vs the X. They didnt had this option before, just a "simple" AYC later the S-AYC.
So it does not control it electronically, it does it mechanically with a rear brake system.

The AYC is not limited by the steering angle also, it is limited by its own Little brain.
The X RS has no brake control over the AYC( since no ABS) it is works as the older versions , just a "simple" electric LSD, doing nothing more or less then a torque vectoring between a rear wheels..
The AYC unlike the mechanical LSD, has a "brain " and that is why the control more precise and smoother then a mechanical LSD.

The S-AWC with a new integrated braking system( ABS ECU) and power delivery system (through the engine ECU ) can and does (if it s on) use brake force from the brake discs through the ABS to help faster slow down individual rear wheels. Kind of enforcing the LSD idea with a new smarter engine ECU and ABS ECU so as the ACD ECu control. But it does not effect on the AYC commands itself. It just amplifies it or corrects it, if that is necessarily. Since the AYC reacts only on the rear wheels attitude. Doesn't knows the front wheels and steering wheel positions and behavior.

Some cool pictures :)

the whole S-AWC system looks like:
http://www.mitsubishiclub.cz/graphics/owners/full/13809_570_lancer-evolution-x-sawc1.jpg

AYC
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g125/rcpax-01/paxtech/AYC_01s.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g125/rcpax-01/paxtech/AYC_02s.jpg
http://evomitsubishi.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/acd-image-288x300.jpg


this is my understanding< so far. But please tell me where i did go wrong .



PS: my new ACD ECU does 5 maps, including completely disconnected front to the rear. WHY? If you have a drive train failure you still can go back to the service without damaging the engine and rest of the drive train, like LSD brakes axles brakes etc. :)

The AYC is controlled by the ACD ecu and it looks at road speed and steering angle, it looks at the G-sensors as well to adjust the pressure to the plates.

On cars with ABS the ACD ecu looks for a signal from the ABS to confirm that it is all up and running fine, the ABS sends a 5v signal to start with then it drops to something like 0.2 volts but oscillates.

The X RS does not have an AYC rear diff, it just has a mechanical rear diff.
You will also find the X RS has wheel speed sensors even tho it does not have ABS, this is to work in conjunction with the acd.

I don't know of any aftermaket ACD ecu that can work with an AYC rear diff yet, what make is yours Rob ?

ETD: here are a list of the fault code for the AYC and this is how we know what controls its :)

AYC Fault Codes.

12 power supply open or short circuit
21 fr right wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
22 fr left wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
23 rear right wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
24 rear left wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
25 wrong diam tyre
26 faulty wheel speed sensor
31 steer sensor system(st1,st2,stn)open circuit
32 steer sensor stn short circuit
33 steer sensor stn system
34 steer system st1 st2 short circuit
41 tps open or short circuit
51 longitudinal acc sensor open or short circuit
52 longitudinal acc sensor
56 lateral acc sensor open or short circuit
61 stop lamp switch system open-circuit
65 abs monitor system open or short circuit
71 proportioning valve system open or short circuit
72 directional control valve right open or short circuit
73 directional control valve left open or short circuit
81 ayc relay system open or short circuit
82 electric pump system
83 electric pump system13 - Fail-safe relay system fault
81 - Pump relay open or short circuit
82 - Pump malfunction or sensor failure

Lee

^^^Yes, this is it. Your describing an Evo X RS Rob, always wondered what your car started as. Not sure if yours has AYC. If it does, and the ABS is not connected, then it is running in a mode similar to an Evo 9 without the AYC Brake, which is through the ASC/ABS computer.

Take a look at your hydraulic pump in the rear Rob, it should have three lines to it if it is an AYC car. The Evo X RS I think uses the Ralliart pump, which is a single line single circuit for the ACD only.

Rob has the Gems, which boils down the ACD and AYC maps to just 5 tables. It goes about the programming of the SAWC completely differently than the stock SAWC Ecu. The Gems does support the AYC (meaning active rear diff), but it throws codes and dash lights according the Gems guy I spoke to last month.

All AYC control is on the SAWC Ecu, including the table that we think governs it. Don't know, but I would imagine there is another table with lateral accel G, like Lee said, that would be influencing it as well, but it has not been found yet.

Some questions that still exist have to do with the mysterious AYC-brake, which seems to communicate more info between the ASC Ecu then just wheel speed. WSS info seems to be pigtailed from the WSS sensors directly to the SAWC, meaning a separate set of outputs than the ASC Ecu gets. Then the SAWC tells the ASC comp to energize any one or all or any combination of the 4 ABS circuits.

Automatic Yaw Control refers to the system of controlling yaw, not the rear diff itself. This is the key to understanding this, they do not mean AYC Brake is a rear diff brake, it's a full four wheel ABD and influences yaw. We should all probably not refer to the rear diff as AYC, it's just part of the system not the whole thing. Either that or disregard Mitsu's label of calling the ABD (Auto brake diff) the "AYC Brake", which is the nomenclature they use on the 2010 and up models when you one touch the ASC off. 2008's had a sgwiggly car graphic, maybe that was better!

Complicated enough?

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9287/11132110mg.jpg

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8990/aycbrakecontrol.png

The term AYC brake is the same as saying an LSD brake in laymans terms to better help the lay person understand what you've just turned off. Unfortunately most of these terms are thought up by what I call the 'carpet strollers' of Mitsubishi. These blokes are marketing people that use words like 'traction' and 'cut through' in their daily vanacular.

Gravel, Tarmac, Snow anyone? Because that terminology is about as useful as tits on a bull to understanding how it all works. Probably from the same bunch of carpet strollers that are too busy playing angry birds on their iPhone to actually take the time and think about what they are branding.

Also Disco, the X RS has two (not one or three) lines. The brake unit up front looks like an ABS unit albeit a smaller version and of course not activated, of course it's not. It's just a small box to work with wheel speed sensors for the ACD.

Also Disco, the X RS has two (not one or three) lines.

Two on the hydraulic unit (pump)? Where does the second one go?

One circuit and one line to ACD, right? Does it look like this?

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k556/autoboy82/eBay/SEPT%2016%202011/DSC01877.jpg

The AYC is controlled by the ACD ecu and it looks at road speed and steering angle, it looks at the G-sensors as well to adjust the pressure to the plates.

On cars with ABS the ACD ecu looks for a signal from the ABS to confirm that it is all up and running fine, the ABS sends a 5v signal to start with then it drops to something like 0.2 volts but oscillates.

The X RS does not have an AYC rear diff, it just has a mechanical rear diff.
You will also find the X RS has wheel speed sensors even tho it does not have ABS, this is to work in conjunction with the acd.

I don't know of any aftermaket ACD ecu that can work with an AYC rear diff yet, what make is yours Rob ?

ETD: here are a list of the fault code for the AYC and this is how we know what controls its :)

AYC Fault Codes.

12 power supply open or short circuit
21 fr right wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
22 fr left wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
23 rear right wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
24 rear left wheel speed sensor open or short circuit
25 wrong diam tyre
26 faulty wheel speed sensor
31 steer sensor system(st1,st2,stn)open circuit
32 steer sensor stn short circuit
33 steer sensor stn system
34 steer system st1 st2 short circuit
41 tps open or short circuit
51 longitudinal acc sensor open or short circuit
52 longitudinal acc sensor
56 lateral acc sensor open or short circuit
61 stop lamp switch system open-circuit
65 abs monitor system open or short circuit
71 proportioning valve system open or short circuit
72 directional control valve right open or short circuit
73 directional control valve left open or short circuit
81 ayc relay system open or short circuit
82 electric pump system
83 electric pump system13 - Fail-safe relay system fault
81 - Pump relay open or short circuit
82 - Pump malfunction or sensor failure

Lee



HI :)

I started with a USDM Evo X GSR in 2008> Basically a base model with Aero on it.
There for my car has am AYC still in the back, but just in case i have a replacement AYC on shelf so as the whole new rear assembly with the evo IX rear diff on shelf too.

I have a GEMS Engine ECU so as the GEMs ACD ECU.

Yes, as much as i know the ACD Ecu (aftermarket ) doesnt control the AYC...
But it works like a charm, when according these theories it shouldn't :) So it does what it designed for. The very nice and smooth torque vectoring at the rear wheels.
0 problem here . That is why i am saying AYC is seems not controlled by any outer source.
I do can imagine the ACD can read and does show faulty codes, since it is a Much much more complex unit. So it should be smarter too. I can see the logic the ACD ECU can and do oversight the AYC, and send codes either to the ABS ECu or the Engine ECU or both, to control and report AYC behavior.


That is what i thought. Since for the ACD or Engine Ecu stand point , really doesnt matter it is a LSD or the AYC the car has equipped. It does sees all the 4 wheels and steering angle, that is how adjust the rest of the drive-train. Mean time the rear wheel either controlled by LSD or AYC . Depends on the application. WIth the ABS equipped car the brake system can help or over come on the AYC anyway. Due the ABS individual brake control.

This is what i saw so far.

Two on the hydraulic unit (pump)? Where does the second one go?

One circuit and one line to ACD, right? Does it look like this?

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k556/autoboy82/eBay/SEPT%2016%202011/DSC01877.jpg

in rally very common those who still using the AYC , using two reservoir. Mainly for cooling purposes.

That is one reason , most guys doesnt use it, and the other is the AYC is pricey compere to the simple LSD unit.

Also the AYC use two different type of fluid. One is shared with the ACD(comes from the same reservoir) , and the other is strictly for the AYC itself.

Good to know Rob.

BTW the Gems does not control the AYC, I verified this through email to Gems awhile ago. Forgot they said NO to the AYC, wrote earlier that it did, my bad.

So there is no way the AYC is working on your car, right??? It has to be actuated by the ACD Ecu, or else it does not work. It's just and open diff. Either that or they mean there is no "AYC provision" in that it can't be modified by their software, and it still runs the AYC off some type of table or map. But I doubt it.

*************
Dear Chris,

Thanks for your email, There is no provision for AYC, but the GEMS Evo X ACD
does work with the standard ECU but does cause errors on the dashboard. I
have attached the spec sheet on both ACD and ECU.

Kind regards

GEMS

General Engine Management Systems Ltd
Tel: +44 (0) 1784 470525
Fax: +44 (0) 1784 470527
www.gems.co.uk

***************

Thanks for the feedback Rob, I can understand what you are saying and if anything I would have thought that your AYC is working in default mode and from my findings this is not such a bad thing and in fact gives much better feedback to the driver.

It will also make the car to tend to understeer but because you have the ACD on the front it will compensate for this, I bet you can get some nice drifts as well ?

If you want I can try to get some pictures of the set up in the new Evo X R4 next time I am down the workshop if the car is there, just to compare there AYC/ACD pump set up.

Cheers
Lee

Thanks for the feedback Rob, I can understand what you are saying and if anything I would have thought that your AYC is working in default mode and from my findings this is not such a bad thing and in fact gives much better feedback to the driver.

It will also make the car to tend to understeer but because you have the ACD on the front it will compensate for this, I bet you can get some nice drifts as well ?

If you want I can try to get some pictures of the set up in the new Evo X R4 next time I am down the workshop if the car is there, just to compare there AYC/ACD pump set up.

Cheers
Lee


I would really appreciate that !!! There is a guy hope fully will come from EU to see what we can do with my Evo. I have no money to get a R4 kit but we might can do something in my set up.

Anyway, thanks for the help !

ps: yes the car drift sometimes :)

Good to know Rob.

BTW the Gems does not control the AYC, I verified this through email to Gems awhile ago. Forgot they said NO to the AYC, wrote earlier that it did, my bad.

So there is no way the AYC is working on your car, right??? It has to be actuated by the ACD Ecu, or else it does not work. It's just and open diff. Either that or they mean there is no "AYC provision" in that it can't be modified by their software, and it still runs the AYC off some type of table or map. But I doubt it.

*************
Dear Chris,

Thanks for your email, There is no provision for AYC, but the GEMS Evo X ACD
does work with the standard ECU but does cause errors on the dashboard. I
have attached the spec sheet on both ACD and ECU.

Kind regards

GEMS

General Engine Management Systems Ltd
Tel: +44 (0) 1784 470525
Fax: +44 (0) 1784 470527
www.gems.co.uk

***************



so basically , i can think as my AYC is in the kind of "limp mode" and does work as a LSD without brain?
My AYC pump and so is working for sure :) also it does locks .

I would really appreciate that !!! There is a guy hope fully will come from EU to see what we can do with my Evo. I have no money to get a R4 kit but we might can do something in my set up.

Anyway, thanks for the help !

ps: yes the car drift sometimes :)

I dont know if you have seen this vid but its got some great footage of the MML Evo X R4 :)

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7OUERdfeds

Cheers
Lee

I dont know if you have seen this vid but its got some great footage of the MML Evo X R4 :)

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7OUERdfeds (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7OUERdfeds)

Cheers
Lee

i know the MML EVo X we have at least one in Hungary :)
http://www.motorsportnews.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/spitzmuller-evoX.jpg

"MML Sports prepares for its first R4 events
Wednesday, 20 April 2011 00:00
Jari Ketomaa to drive MML Sports' R4 in Latvia
Csaba Spitzmuller to run own R4 in Hungary"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4Rp1Eyq83I

PS: my new ACD ECU does 5 maps, including completely disconnected front to the rear.

Then you also have totally different hardware as software cannot "disconnect" the diff from the rear. If you actually look at the insides of the diff you will know why.

Then you also have totally different hardware as software cannot "disconnect" the diff from the rear. If you actually look at the insides of the diff you will know why.

i think they didnt changed anything in the drive train, i been told if something wrong with a drive train i must be switch the acd off and that will help me to get back to the service. I was actually wondering back then what is really the off means , since for me was kind of interesting how the hell the ACD separates the front to the rear. I am not a mechanic so that was beyond me so i just took it as an off , and took the car for a spin....LOL

If that doesn't disconnect the ACD then what is the off really means?

these are the opitions:
"5 Modes of operation: Off, Gravel, Snow, Tarmac, Lock"

i think they didnt changed anything in the drive train, i been told if something wrong with a drive train i must be switch the acd off and that will help me to get back to the service. I was actually wondering back then what is really the off means , since for me was kind of interesting how the hell the ACD separates the front to the rear. I am not a mechanic so that was beyond me so i just took it as an off , and took the car for a spin....LOL

If that doesn't disconnect the ACD then what is the off really means?

these are the opitions:
"5 Modes of operation: Off, Gravel, Snow, Tarmac, Lock"

I would imagine "Off" means open diff and "Lock" means fully closed.

^^Yeah, we talk about that on SAWC tuning threads all the time, people want to erase a mode like snow for track use and replace it with full lock all the time. This is just a limp mode and you can't drive around with it, it's designed for driveshaft breakage or something big that went wrong with the drivetrain. Gets you to the pits without a tow, basically. It locks the ACD and both AYC clutches at all times, and it's hard on the system for sure. If you break a shaft on the track, then all power will go to that wheel or that axle, depending where it is broken. Then your stuck. Locking it all makes it so you can have exactly 50/50 front rear and 50/50 between rear wheels, so your getting some power where you can use it to get back to the paddock.

Gems, Motec both have a limp mode as one of their maps.

No group N or rally car or race car has the "AYC brake / Auto brake diff" if it does not have the full ABS (ASC) system. McCoy pointed out that the Evo X RS is just a nub version of our ABS Pump, without the actual ABS pump. So it does the communication of WSS data but does not have the "AYC brake / Auto brake diff."

Just out of curiosity Rob, how do you know your AYC actually still works? Could you take a pic of your rear diff?

it locks so its works < also the pump is activating time to time etc. (you can hear it too)

my rear is a completely stock set up. On my drive train has 0 change but a clutch for a three pack exedy. I do not have the ABS pump and so i have a pedal box. WE had to leave the ABS brain in the car , other wise the car wouldnt read speed.
If my AYC would be open or not working i would know for sure. that is something you cant miss. :)

here is my brake set up with proportional valve:
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q54/Robevo_2006/2011-08-21130018.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q54/Robevo_2006/P7070119.jpg

here is much as you can see my untouched rear:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q54/Robevo_2006/P1030031.jpg

Can't quite make out the rear diff from this pic, I do see the two AYC lines up there:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q54/Robevo_2006/P1030031.jpg

Should look just like this for AYC rear diff:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a389/mendoboy/Car%20Day/DSC_0084.jpg

60k question - how is Rob's ACD and AYC working without WSS signals? Maybe the Gems routs it through the SAWC Ecu rather than the ASC Ecu? According to this diagram the WSS info goes into the ASC Ecu and nowhere else. Maybe there is a jumper to go directly into the CAN?

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/7936/aycacdwiringdiagram1evo.jpg

What is the SAWC ecu ? I think that is a name of the complex drive train. If there is an SAWC ecu, and that is not in the ABS ecu the I do not have one. All other ecu like unit is removed already. There is literally I have an Engine ECU- ACD ecu (both gems) and a ABS left over Ecu for speed reading. Nothing more in my car besides the wires.
Even un experienced driver can notice and make a difference between fully open or closed. (Death) rear diff. :)

I know how the Ayc looks like , almost 10 years now...
And yes I still have an untouched oem installed. 2 years old S-AYC. Unit in my car rear end. Holding so far the 450 ftg/lb wheel torque.
Next year I will get my. Engine head fixed and etc + retune so I am guessing that will be the end of the AYC era for my car. I still have a spare ayc (evo X) sittingon the shelf waiting for an emergeny swap in tha race. LOL

60k question - how is Rob's ACD and AYC working without WSS signals? Maybe the Gems routs it through the SAWC Ecu rather than the ASC Ecu? According to this diagram the WSS info goes into the ASC Ecu and nowhere else. Maybe there is a jumper to go directly into the CAN?


what do you mean?

the WSS comes from the ABS ECU (also known as the ASC ECU)

Even RS's have a ABS ECU - its just dumbed down :)

^I just don't see the ABS "nub" anywhere on Rob's build, but it's got to be there. Probably not in the stock location?

I don't think mitsubishi makes two different brain for the ABS. I might be wrong , but I think. RS and the GSR has a same unit but the RS like mine is not connected to the pump and so. So it is there to read the different wheel speeds individually that is all.
Correct me if I am wrong.

I just don't see the unit in the stock place Rob, is it elsewhere?

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q54/Robevo_2006/2011-08-21130037.jpg

Are you guys talking about two different things? There is the ABS valve assembly and there is the actual ASC ECU.

Are you guys talking about two different things? There is the ABS valve assembly and there is the actual ASC ECU.

I am talking about the abs ecu. Its a black plastic box. That is attached to the abs pump - assembly.
The reason you can't see there because it is moved in side under the dash board for safety reason.
The ASC ecu is also inside but that is not attached to the abs pump and that is not oem. It is a Gems unit.

I am talking about the abs ecu. Its a black plastic box. That is attached to the abs pump - assembly.
The reason you can't see there because it is moved in side under the dash board for safety reason.
The ASC ecu is also inside but that is not attached to the abs pump and that is not oem. It is a Gems unit.

The ASC/ABS Computer is a Gems unit? I thought the ACD/AYC Computer is a Gems unit?

I'm confused now. When did Gems make a ASC computer?

Yeah, ASC Ecu is integrated into the pump assembly. I guess you could just not connect brake lines to it, but you need the brain.

I don't see how the AYC uses WSS info, the table that governs it has no WSS data derived values, just steering angle and speed. But the ACD does need WSS info, unless Gems accomplishes it in different ways. They do only have 5 tables.

What is still confusing the hell out of me is that GEMS told me no AYC support.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/974/evoxabsascecu.jpg

The ASC/ABS Computer is a Gems unit? I thought the ACD/AYC Computer is a Gems unit?

I'm confused now. When did Gems make a ASC computer?

Sorry you right. , the acd acu is a gems unit. Not an asc. You are right

Yeah, ASC Ecu is integrated into the pump assembly. I guess you could just not connect brake lines to it, but you need the brain.

I don't see how the AYC uses WSS info, the table that governs it has no WSS data derived values, just steering angle and speed. But the ACD does need WSS info, unless Gems accomplishes it in different ways. They do only have 5 tables.

What is still confusing the hell out of me is that GEMS told me no AYC support.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/974/evoxabsascecu.jpg

I am sure the Gems doesn't care about AYC. The homologated. Evo is the RS modell. That is the ONLY one is legit to run rally under FIA rules and those who run they events based on them.
Now gems is made ecus for mainly rally cars wich doesn't have an ayc. There for I do think they never actually tested it. Why they would? Eventually I will let the ayc go too, I am guessing pretty soon. So for them is absolutely and for the racers is not a neccesity to work with an AYC.
So I think they said it won't work , because it is not a problem if it does. But if they say it will work and it doesn't do a 100% complete job or the ayc fails later , some as we know they might will blame them.

Yest that asc ecu is taken out from my car with a pump assembly.

Rob

Let me look into that assembly this after noon. I think I do not have the asc ecu attached to it, so it is possible the asc ecu is in my car somewhere in the cable bundle with a rest of the ecu.
I will back on this tonite after I checked it.

Rob

Ok I cheked it it is not on the unit, so I have to check the. Wireing harness. But I think more likelly is not in the car. I would remember it, anyway just to be sure I'll check it out.

Just an update with the X ACD, In total there are 51 maps so far this includes 2d and 3d maps, here is a screen dump of 2 maps of what I think controls part of the way the ayc works in a set mode be it tarmac, gravel etc , one of the axis I am sure is speed related.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6822/aycplot.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/aycplot.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Also here is another map which is steering angle v pump pressure, well thats what it looks like from the scaling :)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6776/steeringvpumppress.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/steeringvpumppress.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Cheers
Lee

I dont know if you have seen this vid but its got some great footage of the MML Evo X R4 :)

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7OUERdfeds (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7OUERdfeds)

Cheers
Lee

Great video!

Good stuff disco!

Just an update with the X ACD, In total there are 51 maps so far this includes 2d and 3d maps, here is a screen dump of 2 maps of what I think controls part of the way the ayc works in a set mode be it tarmac, gravel etc , one of the axis I am sure is speed related.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6822/aycplot.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/aycplot.jpg/)

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Also here is another map which is steering angle v pump pressure, well thats what it looks like from the scaling :)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6776/steeringvpumppress.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/steeringvpumppress.jpg/)

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Cheers
Lee

Good stuff Lee,

Looking similar to the 8/9 control in these regards. AYC dosen't seem to have anything more than steering angle and speed and does the same thing regardless of mode according to old tables.

Some older tables that have been labeled "G-force" in the B map "lockup reducers" which has a 0-4 value seems to be related to the pump voltage, specifically the proportioning valve voltage (0-4v).

The concept of the 3D maps is blowing my mind! Any chance they are some missing legs of the B maps that take into account front/rear WSS differences? Or maybe even some kind of ABS / ASC info? So cool!