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What Motorsports teach us on Daily Driven Evo's (Handling)

39K views 159 replies 53 participants last post by  Ramphex 
#1 · (Edited)
So I've been getting a lot of comments lately "...but I don't autox/track, just DD". This is starting to annoy me, because my original intention of my build last year was to build a strong daily - proving it's capability by autox, not build a strong autox car (though this year, that's what it's leaned towards). I chose autox because it's sport where lots of learned lessons can be applied to all cars, even dailies. It's cheap, accessible, and applicable to all owners.

This is a discussion. Feel free to discuss in this thread. Nothing I say is intended as fact - it is simply my finding throughout my two (ongoing) build threads.

Obviously this is suspension/handling related. Maybe I'll create a power related one later, but I don't feel there's enough content to discuss in that regard.

---Alignment---
DO NOT EVEN BOTHER THINKING OF ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE AN ALIGNMENT

DO NOT EVEN BOTHER THINKING OF ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE AN ALIGNMENT

DO NOT EVEN BOTHER THINKING OF ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE AN ALIGNMENT

This seriously drives me nuts. I would even go as far to say alignment is > tire choice. If you can't immediately recall your alignment specs, then don't even think about opening your wallet on handling mods yet.



My recommended alignment settings for stock-ish setups:
Front Camber: -2.0+
Front Toe: 0.00
Caster: This isn't adjustable stock, so ~4.1
Rear Camber: -1.5 to -2.0
Rear Toe: 0.00

The Evo X is a HEAVY car. It is a nose-heavy car. If your car is stock, on springs, or lower-end coils, you probably don't have a very high spring rate. The OEM spring rate of ~3.7k is laughably soft. You will always fight front end tire contact with this car, so more is always better - but I ALWAYS recommend at least -2.0.

The increased tire wear from -2.0 is very neglible - don't let anyone scare you out of it. The car starts to come alive at -2.0 or more (stock is only -1.0).

Many people think -1.5 is enough for rear camber. I disagree based on my findings/experiences. I started with -1.5, but got much even wear and temperature readings with -2.0. Always keep in mind that the Evo X is heavy and has very soft spring rates. It will always roll. If you are 100% street, then I would say -1.5 minimum. Sway bar factors in too (will cover later).

Note - for Rear Camber, I do not like to go further than -1.5 on just the adjustment bolt because of how weak they are. I prefer getting the rest from an adjustable Lower Control Arm, hence why Kozmic Motorsports thought it would be good to make a more affordable option on something we found was beneficial to have on ALL cars, not just race cars.

Toe; I dislike ANY amount of toe. Toe scrub will wear tires faster than any other factor, and I feel there are so many other ways to adjust handling/balance than using Toe In/Out, especially with the Evo X and our wonderful AYC. Many seem to agree with me on this, but some mess with toe on the rear.



If using a more aggressive setup (full coilovers/camber plates/stiffer spring rates):

Front Camber: as much as possible. I'm at -2.4 now and the tire wear is still pretty even. the tire as a whole will be worn out before I probably see uneven wear. I wouldn't go above -2.75 for a street car, but you probably won't hit that without a few tricks, so I simply say "as much as possible".

Caster: More is better. This is one of the huge appeals of the Vorshlaq Camber Plates to me. The extra camber is nice and all, but I got an extra 2 degrees of caster from them. 100% worth it.

Rear Camber: on 12k/12k springs and WL sway bars on soft, I found ~ -2.0 rear camber to be the PERFECT amount. My rear tires have a 100% even wear and relatively even temperature reading across. I don't see a need for any more than -2.0, even on the most aggressive setups.

Toe: I still don't like using Toe to alter balance/handling. There are so many other ways to do it imo.

---

Well that kept me occupied through lunch, I'll expand on other topics later. Feel free to discuss alignment, I'll do tires next.

For more details on how I came to my findings, feel free to check my build threads (both 2012 and 2013) below in my sig. And of course, props to the support that got me this far. They all helped me understand and build this information in some way.
Kozmic Motorsports
Forced Induction Development
GTWorx / Race Comp Engineering
Whiteline Flatout

Part 2 - Tires!!!
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1668290#post1668290
Part 3 - Swaybars!!!
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1692018#post1692018
Part 4 - Brakes!!!
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1945010#post1945010
 
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#40 ·
Shit....now I feel like I'm learning math all over again
 
#41 ·
Yup... I have read slowly as I have to visualize everything in my head as described. I am first to admit, I am a noob in suspension and its mechanical dynamics. But I am trying to learn as I go and make my "mods" accordingly as per discussed.
 
#43 · (Edited)
great thread, good info- subd.

I might as well post my suspension setup:

-Coilovers: Fortune Auto 510s Series V4 with swift springs (8/9k), rear helper springs, and roller bearings. Damping set to full stiff in rear, and 5 clicks from full stiff up front
-Hotchkiss rear sway bar (and Hotchkiss heavy endlinks), currently on full stiff
-T Spec Rear adjustable control arms
-Cusco rear upper strut bar
-Whiteline RCK (front outer tie rods, and front lower ball joints)

Alignment settings:

0 (zero) toe on all four corners
Front -1.5 deg. camber
Rear -1.0 deg. camber

Stock GSR rims on Continental Extreme Contact DWS for now, I just had my set of XXR 522 18x9.5 arrive last week, I have literally been searching about tires for a week.

Probably gunna go with the BFG G-force KDW 2s

...handles like a dream right now, *except* for a bit (every so slightly from neutral) of understeer (AYC/ACD off-off) on turn-in... I would like to get rid of that, hopefully my new tires will take care of that for me, anyone have any other suggestions?


edit- spelling
 
#49 ·
thank you for this. I purchase my x in 2 months. first thing to do is dropping it. will take it to kozmic to get it aligned with your specs. Eric has worked on my car before and they are an amazing team and real professional and will really take care of your car in their shop.

keep up the good work.
 
#51 ·
thank you for this. I purchase my x in 2 months. first thing to do is dropping it. will take it to kozmic to get it aligned with your specs. Eric has worked on my car before and they are an amazing team and real professional and will really take care of your car in their shop.

keep up the good work.
:nerd: glad you found it helpful!

not sure what topic to cover next. ideas readers? remember the focus of the topic - more performance/competitive oriented discussion can take up a whole thread in itself
 
#54 ·
ok so we touched on tires, sway bars, coilovers, spring rates, damping rates, braces, alignment specs

perhaps someone could chime in on the effects of "aero parts", and what different parts do, how they affect the car and its handling properties through turning, braking, acceleration, strait lines, drag, etc.

surely, aerodynamics is a *major* contributor to a vehicle's handling characteristics and capabilities. I could go into detail about how speed is the greatest influence on how well a part will work, but im at work right now, dont really have time. if someone else wants to, feel free, otherwise- i will tomorrow.

another small category could be rims- sizing and weight, and their affects on the inertial properties of the rim its self when it's spinning
 
#57 ·
Also, as said before Areo would be an excellent topic. I for one am pretty interested in weight reduction and balance of such. I have known folks in the past that take weight reduction to extremes, only to find the balance of the car is off, effecting drivability. Just an idea.

BTW, thank you fine sir for taking a bit of time to go over this and get people thinking!
 
#59 ·
No. I read up on this on the SCCA forums and got a resounding no due to changes in tie rod ends and lengthening the ball joint attachment. Quote: "If it doesn't say you CAN do it (in SP category), you CANNOT do it" edit: Unless this has been updated very recently!

But the only thing is, who is going to look at your ball joints and tie rod ends to protest you? I run SM due to other reasons including RCK, but really for someone to protest, they would have to know what it looks like stock and measurements. you can run GS if nobody protests lol.
 
#61 ·
Heh?
 
#64 ·
Great thread I like soaking up info and opinions from the more experienced & respected guys on here.

My current alignment and suspension mods/setting are in line with what people are saying in this thread but I feel like something is wrong. Perhaps my stock struts are on their way out after many miles with works springs? When I first got the car I felt like it had incredible grip and was really stable going through a corner, mid turn i would always feel like wow I could've entered so much faster I'm not driving anywhere near the limits of the car. Now the car just doesn't feel the same, I feel far less confident driving it aggressively recently and it seems like the back end steps out on me far too easily. The other thing I've noticed is that it feels much more unstable on rougher roads, anytime there are bumpy areas on a twisty backroad I feel like the car is all over the place and bumpy and I'll be cruising with a friend and his car (FD RX7 w Megan Coilovers) seems to be gliding over the same bumps effortlessly with no loss of control. Only thing I've changed is the rear sway bar and endlinks perhaps I should try going back to stock.
 
#67 ·
first things that come up to mind are a rear sway bar too stiff (since you didn't mention what you set it at) or shocks that are wearing out

remember that the stiffer your sway bar is, the less independent each shock becomes. this can cause some upsets with bumps, especially mid-corner. This opens up to the debate of stiffer sways vs stiffer springs
 
#68 ·
first things that come up to mind are a rear sway bar too stiff (since you didn't mention what you set it at) or shocks that are wearing out

remember that the stiffer your sway bar is, the less independent each shock becomes. this can cause some upsets with bumps, especially mid-corner. This opens up to the debate of stiffer sways vs stiffer springs
I have my Cobb RSB on the softest setting with racingline endlinks set to the same length as stock. I really do think its the shocks/struts/dampers. My chassis has 66K on it and I'm pretty sure that the works springs were added very early in her life so all signs point in this direction. Is there a way to confirm that they are going or have gone bad? Coilovers are moving up on my priority list.
 
#77 ·
Its not that it is a big deal, it was just far easier getting a matching setup. When I was trying to get my KWs and Ohlins, all the vendors i dealt with were telling me that i had to buy from them and find someone else to get valving and stiffer springs. Maybe they weren't great vendors but I had a hard time trying to get something outside of off the shelf. FA was very easy and I got to put in my requirements when I ordered.
 
#78 ·
definitely bad vendors...sort of stemming from the fact that everyone and their mom sells ohlins and KW's. they probably just don't care for anything other than your purchase order

finding good support is just as important as what you buy! obviously my vote goes GTWorx :)
 
#80 ·
Part 4 - Brakes



If you read the previous sections, I hope you got the most important aspect of our car across your head - our cars are HEAVY.

This means we need a strong braking setup to handle the weight. Thankfully, the Brembo Calipers are really damn capable. Extremely capable.

You don't need to upgrade your calipers. They are more than you will ever need for a DD. Even for track-only racecars, it's hard to justify the cost of upgrading them. Be happy that Mitsu didn't cheap out in this department (and hasn't since the Evo II, from what I've seen, only the Evo I had weak brakes)

Next we have the rotor. This is where braking force is applied - where the brake pad meets contact - that is it's ONLY purpose.

Just like brake pads, rotors are a wear and tear item. They shouldn't wear as fast (more on that later), but eventually they wear out. Don't be ignorant and be this person:


So what if you come to a point you want/need to replace them? I'm sure you have your eye on slotted/drilled rotors for the sex appeal (I don't blame you):shades:

What to consider:

1pc vs 2pc Rotors
There IS a weight difference (http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1120005), but remember that rotors are a wear-and-tear item. The price difference between 1pc and 2pc is definitely significant, but being a wear-and-tear item, almost nobody will tell you that you need a 2pc over a 1pc. Only the dedicated track users use 2pc full time - and even then some track users still prefer cheaper 1pc slotted or even blanks since they will be replaced anyway.

Slotted vs Drilled vs Both vs Blank
Let's get drilled out of the way first - No.

Drilled rotors were popular on race cars years ago when brake technology was much...less adequate. But over the years, brake technology has advanced to the point where even in stock form, it takes most people a few laps before experiencing brake fade.

Drilled rotors, since they create an actual hole in your rotor, flat-out reduces structural integrity of your rotor. There is no avoiding that. In the past, this was still necessary in order to adequately keep the brakes cool on high performance cars, but advancements have made this technique completely unnecessary. Buying a drilled rotor is just buying a weaker rotor. You won't ever need a drilled rotor for a DD. Yes they look cool, but you won't find advice that you need to buy them here.

Then there's slotted. Many people are switching to slotted rotors over drilled (some still do both) to evacuate heat. This has definitely been adopted as a strong technique while still retaining strong structure in the rotor. It's hard to find an aftermarket brake rotor that isn't slotted.

And believe it or not, it does make a difference on the street - but still a difference that's hard to justify 100% worth it. My first experience from an OEM 2pc blank to a 1pc slotted (DBA4000 - http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1120005) forced me to execute my bed-in procedure at a MUCH higher speed. The slots on the DBA were definitely evacuating heat much better than the blank 2pc.

But it's still hard to justify this to every DD car. The whole purpose of evacuating heat from the brakes is to avoid brake fade. With the appropriate pad/setup - this is near impossible to do in a street/DD environment. Thankfully, the price isn't too high, so splurge away if you want to - many people do :shades:

As mentioned above though, if you're at a time to replace the rotors (OEM rotors are pretty thin, some people haven't had luck re-surfacing them) and you're either short on cash or not sure if stepping up to a slotted rotor will be worth it - just get a blank. For a DD car, there's not that much to be gained here.

Brake Pad
This is the MOST important part - because our caliper and rotors are very capable from the factory.

This is where the "Evo X's are heavy" comes into play. Dis-regard "general" reviews of brake pads. Many reviews you read from other plubications/forums use a lighter/cheaper car as their test-bed (same goes for tires). Such cars require much less braking force than our 3500lb+ Evo's.

There are popular, well reviewed brake pads out there that work horribly on the Evo X purely because they were designed for lighter cars. Some even from major brands, but they will be worse than OEM. When looking for a brake pad, make sure you look for an Evo X specific review - thankfully we have plenty.

 
#81 ·
Great post. But one correction. Not even dedicated track users find 2-piece rotors attractive. Its only for those racing competitively. For example, even if I did 20 track events a year and they were all HPDEs, I wouldn't find 2-piece rotors attractive at all. Its not like they wear out any slower either.
 
#83 ·
I dig having two-piece. I have no comparison though, have always had two-piece since I have an MR. When my original stock ones wore out, I stayed with 2-piece. The initial cost is higher, but the replacement rings cost about the same a good one piece. Considering the beating I give these brakes, the 2-piece give me piece of mind and most likely offer a bit better performance. I've added a brake cooling kit and MUCH more aggressive pads, so that extra heat dissipating capacity might pay off. Who knows.
 
#86 ·
I dig having two-piece. I have no comparison though, have always had two-piece since I have an MR. When my original stock ones wore out, I stayed with 2-piece. The initial cost is higher, but the replacement rings cost about the same a good one piece. Considering the beating I give these brakes, the 2-piece give me piece of mind and most likely offer a bit better performance. I've added a brake cooling kit and MUCH more aggressive pads, so that extra heat dissipating capacity might pay off. Who knows.
I know its been a while since you wrote this Morricus, but I have to respectfully disagree. Cost of replacement rings on a 2-piece plus cost of mounting them on the center hats per rotor is more than double the cost of a good 1-piece rotor.

For example, front rotor rings from Girodisc are 490 and you will incur at-least another 60~75 bucks to have them mounted. That is basically 550+ just for the fronts. For that same amount of money, I got a full set of their premium gold slotted 1-piece vaned rotors for all 4 corners not long ago.
 
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