Question about timing maps

[Joeyrukkus]

I'm laughing my ass off at this thread. if there is 1 thing that really starts a shit show it's a debate about timing!

[UT_EvoX]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

I understand that, and dont take it personally when I say that since you started tuning your car on a dyno you have been making some assumptions that are wrong.

Who are you to say that I'm wrong? My opinions are not just my own. We have a highly collaborative environment at my shop. We have 3 very experienced tuners (5+ years experience), including myself, and a few newer to the game. I'm not just sitting on a high horse. I have access to a whole boatload of tunes we've produced for Evo's over the years, as well as access to COBB's staged maps since we are COBB Pro Tuners, so this is a cumulative of everything I've seen historically for cars we've tuned for 4+ hours each on the dyno, before I even came into the picture.

Opinions are opinions. Get beyond thinking that another tuner is "right" or "wrong." I was there about 5 years ago, and it's no way to learn.

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by UT_EvoX

The only street tune I've produced in the past 2-3 years has been for my own car, and it had way more hours put into it than I could ever charge anybody.

Allow me to expound.

A street tune can be a good tune, so long as driveability is taken into account. A dyno tune can also be a garbage tune, such as one produced on a DynoJet. A combination of street tuning and DynoJet tuning can be a good tune as well. Real tuning, taking all driving situations into account, happens on a load-bearing dyno along with a few trips around the block if there are known start-stop issues that are difficult to simulate on the dyno.

Real, real tuning - i.e. what Mitsubishi did to produce the factory tune, happens on an engine dyno. I hope to have access to one in the next 5 years because I would be in complete bliss then.


And again, no, I wasn't referring to you at all for zeroing out important maps... just an observation of a few other tunes I've seen. If I was wanting to insult you, I would call you out directly. Stop being so defensive.

I know its been on your own car, but to say that you have put so much time into your tune which was not made on a dyno, then say that the only real tunes are the ones done on a dyno is a paradox.

Im really not being defensive. False information being put out from someone who has experience (since the person giving out the info has experience, the person asking for it will take it as gospel) will mislead or confuse someone and can potentially cause a disaster. I dont post nearly as much as I used to because now, if its a informative topic, I dont post unless I know (based on my own research or from multiple very experience tuners) that what I am saying is true.

[UT_EvoX]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

I know its been on your own car, but to say that you have put so much time into your tune which was not made on a dyno, then say that the only real tunes are the ones done on a dyno is a paradox.

Im really not being defensive. False information being put out from someone who has experience (since the person giving out the info has experience, the person asking for it will take it as gospel) will mislead or confuse someone and can potentially cause a disaster. I dont post nearly as much as I used to because now, if its a informative topic, I dont post unless I know (based on my own research or from multiple very experience tuners) that what I am saying is true.

My information was not false. I simply made a blanket statement and I'm uncomfortable with giving anybody such specific figures on this site for the very reason you presented.

If I had to restate, I would simply say that 2* advance is probably on the low side and I would err toward the 4-6 degree range, given that your MIVEC isn't super insane and boost is in the 25-27 psi peak range.

But even that is suggesting too much.


edit: part of my perspective comes from speed density tuning both Subarus and Evo's, and helping remap standalone-driven cars from scratch. The easiest way to accomplish those tuning feats is on a dyno, preferably with live tuning. I too often fell into the trap of chasing myself around on my own street tuning and now I've kind of "settled" on a tuning technique. I'm also not afraid to share with others how I tune. I'm not in the business of hoarding techniques or information, but it's also difficult to effectively share things of this nature.

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by UT_EvoX

My information was not false. I simply made a blanket statement and I'm uncomfortable with giving anybody such specific figures on this site for the very reason you presented.

If I had to restate, I would simply say that 2* advance is probably on the low side and I would err toward the 4-6 degree range, given that your MIVEC isn't super insane and boost is in the 25-27 psi peak range.

But even that is suggesting too much.

Saying that 2* of advance is too little and 4-6* is a great starting poing is totally correct. Im sure every tuner on here, E-tuner or not will agree with that.

[UT_EvoX]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

Saying that 2* of advance is too little and 4-6* is a great starting poing is totally correct. Im sure every tuner on here, E-tuner or not will agree with that.

The whole point is to avoid somebody getting false knock or other ignition anomalies by running too little timing. It's difficult to qualify those kind of things without getting into debate, so often making the short and succinct "that's not right" statement is just easier.

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by UT_EvoX

The whole point is to avoid somebody from getting false knock or other ignition anomalies by running too little timing. It's difficult to qualify those kind of things without getting into debate, so often making the short and succinct "that's not right" statement is just easier.

Yes, you are correct. Too little timing can cause knock just as much as too much timing.

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by Joeyrukkus

I'm laughing my ass off at this thread. if there is 1 thing that really starts a shit show it's a debate about timing!

There is a massive reason for that, but im not going to get into that can of worms right now.

[UT_EvoX]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

There is a massive reason for that, but im not going to get into that can of worms right now.

Yes.

I'm also not convinced timing is the rod killer on stock blocks as much is running the stock turbo out of its efficiency range.

We know detonation is what accelerates the failure, but the contributing factors need to be weighed.

I know if we ever get an engine dyno, I'd like to discover the true limits of the stock long block

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by UT_EvoX

I know if we ever get an engine dyno, I'd like to discover the true limits of the stock long block

That would be cool, but it may be kind of like a hit and miss type of thing since some motors cant handle 400 wtq, and some others handle 450wtq no problem.

I really think we wouldnt have half as many issues if Mitsu would have put in a stronger rod from the factory and just increased the MSRP 500 bucks