What Motorsports teach us on Daily Driven Evo's (Handling)

[ddawg1130]

I'm going to have to disagree strongly with your recommendation of -2 degrees of camber in the front.

This is only because you've stated that the intent of this thread is to apply what motorsports teach us to daily driven evos.

In motorsports (real ones, not drag racing) you are often cornering and cornering hard. Having the negative camber provides both better handling as well as more even tire wear.

But still, at -2 degrees and above you are going to wear the insides of your tire very fast. I don't know what tires you've driven that don't wear at -2 degrees of camber, except those camber tires lol. Or if you only drive on really twisty roads?

My buddies IX with -2.5 degrees camber that is daily driven and weekend auto-x is chewing through the insides of his star specs, and star specs generally are known for lasting a while compared to other UHP tires.

So if motorsports teaches us anything for a daily driven evo it's to not run high camber unless you like buying new tires all the time.

[KickAss]

For a strict DD, I would keep camber < 1 degree and toe as close to 0 as possible on all 4 corners.

[HappyMint]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

how bad is your inside tire wear?

My tires wear like perfectly even. But I do a good bit of Auto X so it wears the outsides while the daily driving wears the insides.

DDawg, you also have to keep in mind, a lot of these UHPS tires are designed and intended to be run with camber. -2* isn't that much camber anyways...

[Exyia]

Originally Posted by HappyMint

My tires wear like perfectly even. But I do a good bit of Auto X so it wears the outsides while the daily driving wears the insides.

DDawg, you also have to keep in mind, a lot of these UHPS tires are designed and intended to be run with camber. -2* isn't that much camber anyways...

Happymind beat me to it

again ddawg, it can depend on your friend's setup as a whole. He might be using too much camber, as -2.0 is regarded as the break-off point where wear becomes more apparent (although Happymint and I will still share that our tires still last plenty long)

and as he mentioned already, higher performance tires are biased for some camber already

but the main point is that, yes 0.00 camber is ideal for tire life, the spring rates are SOOO soft on anything but a full coilover system, that ANY amount of body roll will suck the life out of the car

it's debateable, but through my multiple sets of tires, I haven't seen any uneven wear that would have ruined the tire as a whole anyway. Plus, -2.0 is nothing compared to what I hear some Porsche's run

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

how bad is your inside tire wear?

I run -2.5, -2.0 and it's still very even. I'm sure Happymint is experiencing the same. Don't let idiot tireshops scare you away, -2.x camber really isn't that bad and imo, is worth the handling upgrade (that doesn't cost you anything but an alignment)

Originally Posted by EAGLE 5

Soft it is... I just took my car to a rallysprint event and boy did the thing come down hard after some smallish jumps...

I'd like to see how I can maximize my car's suspension for rally-X but staying with stock components sway bars is as far as I would go.

RallyX is a whole different animal and uses some different fundementals that I simply don't know much about. Other than swaybars, but that's another section for when I get to it

Originally Posted by joshesevo22

To adjust camber in the rears, "Noob question" do you need adjustable control arms? i know my friends evo 8 he couldnt adjust the camber. I'm also on AMR coilovers and have yet to be aligned...

I wouldn't go past -1.5 on just the rear bolts for rear camber. It is adjustable, but they're known to be fragile, so I prefer getting adjustable LCA's to get the rest (hence Kozmic makes an affordable option to lessen the burden)

[HAHAV8]

I had zero toe all around, and I think -1.5 camber up front, and -1.0 in the rear, and the car felt absolutely awful, on the highway it had no stability while changing lanes, and almost felt like you could lose control if you changed directions too quickly. Not to mention my stability control would come on very easy. Everything prior to this alignment was great, all my suspension parts are installed properly also.

I took it back and made them fix it, and they added in some toe in on the rear( I believe, this was 8 months ago), and the car behaved much better.

Is the reason for the absolutely awful, dangerous stability with no toe, because I did not have enough camber? The car felt horrible, and handled just terrible.

[ddawg1130]

Originally Posted by HAHAV8

I had zero toe all around, and I think -1.5 camber up front, and -1.0 in the rear, and the car felt absolutely awful, on the highway it had no stability while changing lanes, and almost felt like you could lose control if you changed directions too quickly. Not to mention my stability control would come on very easy. Everything prior to this alignment was great, all my suspension parts are installed properly also.

I took it back and made them fix it, and they added in some toe in on the rear( I believe, this was 8 months ago), and the car behaved much better.

Is the reason for the absolutely awful, dangerous stability with no toe, because I did not have enough camber? The car felt horrible, and handled just terrible.

No, toe is used as a crutch for people who don't like the unstable feeling. Having toe in the rear will always fight to straighten out the car making the car feel more stable, but at the cost of shaving off your tire.

So that feeling you had had nothing to do with the camber. The feeling is actually what people on here who race their cars want. Because in reality it's not that you have less control, you have more. The car is behaving exactly as you tell it. Zero toe gives better cornering and just better overal control.

But at the cost of the car "feeling" less stable in a straight line. the car will follow the cracks and imperfections in the road. If you don't like that feeling, then run a little toe in the rear. It's why factory specs for all cars call for a little toe in the rear.

[Exyia]

Originally Posted by HAHAV8

I had zero toe all around, and I think -1.5 camber up front, and -1.0 in the rear, and the car felt absolutely awful, on the highway it had no stability while changing lanes, and almost felt like you could lose control if you changed directions too quickly. Not to mention my stability control would come on very easy. Everything prior to this alignment was great, all my suspension parts are installed properly also.

I took it back and made them fix it, and they added in some toe in on the rear( I believe, this was 8 months ago), and the car behaved much better.

Is the reason for the absolutely awful, dangerous stability with no toe, because I did not have enough camber? The car felt horrible, and handled just terrible.

you definitely have deeper problems then. Camber does not cause that, especially at those modest levels

and your stability control should NOT be kicking in on quick lane changes. suspect something wrong with wheel speed sensors and sending bad signals to the ASC/AWD system (they are intertwined). that would be my first guess, but could be a lot of things

[HAHAV8]

Originally Posted by Exyia

you definitely have deeper problems then. Camber does not cause that, especially at those modest levels

and your stability control should NOT be kicking in on quick lane changes. suspect something wrong with wheel speed sensors and sending bad signals to the ASC/AWD system (they are intertwined). that would be my first guess, but could be a lot of things

I'm not sure, the car handles pretty well now. That particular alignment was just awful.

I think there is more in it with a better alignment though.

The only time my ASC was kicking in was when the alignment was out of wack. Now it does not come on unless I really push it in a corner, to the point where it might start losing grip.

EDIT: I was referring to the 0 toe, I think that is what made the car handle so poorly. The only thing that changed between my original alignment and the bad one, was toe. I went from an aggressive amount of toe-in up front, to 0 degrees. Before the turn-in was super sharp, it held an amazing line, and high speed stability was awesome. Although I was definitely experiencing some pre-mature outter edge wear.

[HAHAV8]

Originally Posted by ddawg1130

No, toe is used as a crutch for people who don't like the unstable feeling. Having toe in the rear will always fight to straighten out the car making the car feel more stable, but at the cost of shaving off your tire.

So that feeling you had had nothing to do with the camber. The feeling is actually what people on here who race their cars want. Because in reality it's not that you have less control, you have more. The car is behaving exactly as you tell it. Zero toe gives better cornering and just better overal control.

But at the cost of the car "feeling" less stable in a straight line. the car will follow the cracks and imperfections in the road. If you don't like that feeling, then run a little toe in the rear. It's why factory specs for all cars call for a little toe in the rear.

Well this makes very good sense. I'm not well versed on this topic, I just did a little research before my alignment and said I wanted 0 toe.

When I would aggressively swerve back and fourth at thruway speeds, the ASC light would come on. Is that normal? I mean I was really switching lanes very aggressively.

I do remember the car feeling good around a long off-ramp, but the turn-in, and stability was just not there. Not what I wanted on the street.

[Exyia]

Part 2 - Tires



Let's avoid tire reviews. That alone is worth it's own thread(s). So without reviews, I'll keep it brief (because I'm not sure what else there is to talk about in this section)

Just like alignment, if you don't know the exact specs and tire model you run on your car, figure that out now. Don't bother opening your wallet on handling mods until you know BOTH YOUR ALIGNMENT AND TIRES.

A recurring theme that everyone needs to remember, the Evo X is HEAVY. This creates more stress and a higher demand on tire performance.

When looking through tire reviews, keep in mind what car they were reviewed on. Toyo R1R's for example, get great reviews, but are FAR too soft to be considered "top tier" for the Evo X.

Do NOT confuse stiff sidewalls with tire grip (vice versa). Responsive steering feel and on-center feedback is primarily SIDEWALL. This does NOT mean the tire has a lot of grip - NT05's are a perfect example.

Because of the heavy weight, Evo X's feel better the stiffer sidewall you get. Yes, it impacts comfort, but everyone's tolerance is different. I could care less, so YMMV.

As for actual tire grip, consider the optimum temperature range for the tire. NEVER assume you can reach higher temperatures on the street. The temperatures you "think" you reach on the street are NOWHERE near what you will reach at an autox/track.

Note - Treadwear ratings are not a universal standard. I would not trust them as for gauging tread life

Not sure what else to elaborate on. Feel free to discuss. I think sway bars are next? Another topic where some people's misguided/ill-informed decisions/recommendations/understanding drives me nuts.