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Track Discussion for track driving techniques, events and results.

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Old 10-15-2014, 08:49 PM   #11
Hispanic Panic
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BLK, would you reccomend i stray away from any cooling for the time being till i figure out something proper? I've got some entry level trackpads right now but have st-43's in the mail. Should i be worried if i run them without cooling?
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Old 10-15-2014, 10:01 PM   #12
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If your not having problems with fade or glazing on street pads, I wouldn't be too worried. The pads you have now are probably fine up to around 700-800*F. ST43's are ok to around 1000*F. They're not a really aggressive pad. What kind of racing are you doing? If its just track days with 20-30 minute sessions, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Before solving a problem you don't yet have, get a good infrared thermometer that'll read over 1000*F. I have this one: http://www.amazon.com/Nubee%C2%AE-Te...dp/B00CVHIJDK/

After a session, hop out and check our rotor temps. If your not getting near the glazing point for your pads, then there's nothing to worry about. If you are, you can always brake a little earlier to avoid glazing.

Another good option is to by some temperature indicating paint: http://www.raceshopper.com/temperature_paint.shtml

Basically put paint 3 little lines on the edge of your rotor: green, yellow, red. They turn white at different temperatures, so it acts like a sort of temp gauge.

A note about evo brakes and traction control: if you leave traction control on even 1 click, you will destroy your REAR pads. I know this counter-intuitive, but on track, the car is constantly using the rear brakes to try to keep the car flat. This isn't good I went through about 1/2 a set of pads that last guys a full season of time attack, in just 1 light track weekend when I left TC on 1 click in the rain!
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:17 PM   #13
Hispanic Panic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-majik View Post
If your not having problems with fade or glazing on street pads, I wouldn't be too worried. The pads you have now are probably fine up to around 700-800*F. ST43's are ok to around 1000*F. They're not a really aggressive pad. What kind of racing are you doing? If its just track days with 20-30 minute sessions, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Before solving a problem you don't yet have, get a good infrared thermometer that'll read over 1000*F. I have this one: http://www.amazon.com/Nubee%C2%AE-Te...dp/B00CVHIJDK/

After a session, hop out and check our rotor temps. If your not getting near the glazing point for your pads, then there's nothing to worry about. If you are, you can always brake a little earlier to avoid glazing.

Another good option is to by some temperature indicating paint: http://www.raceshopper.com/temperature_paint.shtml

Basically put paint 3 little lines on the edge of your rotor: green, yellow, red. They turn white at different temperatures, so it acts like a sort of temp gauge.

A note about evo brakes and traction control: if you leave traction control on even 1 click, you will destroy your REAR pads. I know this counter-intuitive, but on track, the car is constantly using the rear brakes to try to keep the car flat. This isn't good I went through about 1/2 a set of pads that last guys a full season of time attack, in just 1 light track weekend when I left TC on 1 click in the rain!

what pads are you on?

I havn't logged brake temps yet, but i'll ad that to my list of things to monitor after a run including tire temp gradients and pressure. On my entry level track pads, if i push them for 4-5 turns in a row i'll get some fade and i usually end up blowing the corner in an offtrack excursion. My thoughts were that if i could get some cooling, i may be able to prevent the fade and be able to work on my braking more. Its kind of hard to develop skill when i can't push myself for more than 1-2 turns per lap.

I just purchased st43's and i'm still on street tires (MPSS). With the heat capacity of st43's, i may not need cooling to prevent fade, but i am worried about ruining the dust boots on the stock pads from excessive heat. Let me know if i'm getting concerned for no reason.

I have been running the traction control 1 click off because i feel my turn in is sharper and i can hammer the gas better on exit. So far i've got 2 track weekends on my entry level track pads + 4 auto-x & 10k daily miles. No probs yet beating on my car with TC 1 off. BUT... My new suspension setup i think is now calling for full off. I just installed a front sway & Perrin PSRS on top of my KW coils & rear sway, and with the front sway at full stiff and rear at med, i think the car performs better with the traction control full off. My next track session i think i'll turn the rear up to full stiff and play with TC again just to be sure.

Last edited by Hispanic Panic; 10-16-2014 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:32 PM   #14
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I have a full brakeman kit (tornado f4 calipers, front 2pc procast rotors, 4.75" pads). The pad compounds I'm using are their #3 compound on the street (1200*f, 0.48 coef) and #84 on the track (1400*f, 0.56 coef). I don't have any ducting work on the evo, because its not needed.

If your getting fade (glazing - brake still feels firm, but you dont slow down as much), then your not using good enough pads. Cooling might help you get a bit deeper into a session with low-end pads, but you should really upgrade the pads! Look at it this way - of your gonna get your brakes over 1000*f, but the pads can only work up to 700*f, that extra air isn't going to make up the 300* difference. Ducting is a last resort, not a first. Highest cost, least impact.

When your running the highest temp pads you can justify and STILL glazing, then consider it. But before you get to that point, you'll have another problem: you'll boil your brake fluid (brake feels soft and doesn't clamp much). When you get to that point, you'll want to consider ducting (or a fluid flush if its just old/crappy).

Another thing to keep in mind is that your brakes can only work as hard as your tires. You SHOULD get the tires to lock up well before you brake hard enough to really heat up too much. Especially on street tires. Learning to do this with TC off (threshold braking) is one of the first advanced techniques you should learn on the track. I cant imagine you'd have issues with TC off. I'm able to threshold brake on Hoosier R6 racing slicks, which grip WAY harder and work the brakes way more and not overheat.

Traction control prevents you from learning this. When you brake too hard for your tires to deal with, it'll compensate by overheat your brakes (pads and fluid) with ABS. When you brake after a straight, do you feel the ABS vibrating? That's basically a motor that fully activates and releases your brake super fast. This is horrible for your brakes, and worst than that, it trains you to over-brake like crazy. If your ABS fails (which is likely if you continually depend on it), you'll probably end up skidding into a wall.

You say you like TC because it lets you 'hammer the gas better on exit'. What's happening is your rear brakes are activating as soon as you get on the gas to counter the spinning that your inducing. It might feel better, but your going slower. You should never hammer the gas, always feather it slowly. You can probably start adding gas earlier, but more lightly, then feeding in more throttle as you unwind the wheel, so your back to full throttle earlier without TC.

I don't mean to discourage your or attack what your doing. I used to do the same thing. Then when I started getting good enough to not need TC, I was already in the solo groups and was already REALLY fast, but I already learned a lot of bad habits. I ended up putting my X in a wall on a 120mph corner. People told me what I'm telling you and I didnt listen because its fun to lap (poorly driven) 911's After my accident, I re-learned to drive on a 110hp car with no abs, power steering, tc ,etc. And I'm lapping 911's again, but with only 110hp My lap times in a 1991 1.6L miata with over 200k miles on it are lower than they were in my evo back when I used to use TC.
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:48 PM   #15
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Ive been looking at ducting for my X - and may make something up over the winter.

I dont think Im necessarily experiencing glazing as you put it blk - but I seem to kill rotors rather frequently (4-6 track days). After I killed my last set of stock rotors (stock rotors and ST-43s) I tried a set of cheap Centric rotors and they seemed to last about 3 days, then I went to a set of Girodisc's. They lasted the longest at about 6 days, but they seem to be vibrating pretty heavily after heating up (2-3 sessions into the day generally).

Any ideas/suggestions?
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:51 PM   #16
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case in point regarding learning bad habits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JEr6QwKoJA
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Old 10-16-2014, 07:54 PM   #17
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Wow, that's pretty harsh! I didn't stick with the stock brembos very long, so I can't really speak to that. But I've had the same set of rotors for probably a couple dozen track days in the evo, plus 5+ years of daily use, and they're still fine.

Its a combo of the rotor and pad. Some pads are harder on rotors than others. Some rotors aren't made as well as others. Just gotta find a combo that works.
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:22 PM   #18
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Holy shit! I just watched all 10 minutes of that video, unreal. I often worry that I may have picked up some bad driving habits along the way but I certainly know I don't have any bad habits when it comes to safety.

Maybe Ill try a different set of pads the next go round, Ill likely also have these girodisc rotors skimmed true and see how they handle that. Can anyone suggest something similar/better than the ST43? I'm not concerned about noise, or street driving.

I believe a part of it (for me anyway) is the track. I spent a lot of time this season at Thompson and there are quite a few turns on the track where you going from at or above triple digits to 30-40 MPH, certainly not as smooth and flowing as the Glen or Limerock.
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:45 PM   #19
Hispanic Panic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-majik View Post
I have a full brakeman kit (tornado f4 calipers, front 2pc procast rotors, 4.75" pads). The pad compounds I'm using are their #3 compound on the street (1200*f, 0.48 coef) and #84 on the track (1400*f, 0.56 coef). I don't have any ducting work on the evo, because its not needed.

If your getting fade (glazing - brake still feels firm, but you dont slow down as much), then your not using good enough pads. Cooling might help you get a bit deeper into a session with low-end pads, but you should really upgrade the pads! Look at it this way - of your gonna get your brakes over 1000*f, but the pads can only work up to 700*f, that extra air isn't going to make up the 300* difference. Ducting is a last resort, not a first. Highest cost, least impact.

When your running the highest temp pads you can justify and STILL glazing, then consider it. But before you get to that point, you'll have another problem: you'll boil your brake fluid (brake feels soft and doesn't clamp much). When you get to that point, you'll want to consider ducting (or a fluid flush if its just old/crappy).

Another thing to keep in mind is that your brakes can only work as hard as your tires. You SHOULD get the tires to lock up well before you brake hard enough to really heat up too much. Especially on street tires. Learning to do this with TC off (threshold braking) is one of the first advanced techniques you should learn on the track. I cant imagine you'd have issues with TC off. I'm able to threshold brake on Hoosier R6 racing slicks, which grip WAY harder and work the brakes way more and not overheat.

Traction control prevents you from learning this. When you brake too hard for your tires to deal with, it'll compensate by overheat your brakes (pads and fluid) with ABS. When you brake after a straight, do you feel the ABS vibrating? That's basically a motor that fully activates and releases your brake super fast. This is horrible for your brakes, and worst than that, it trains you to over-brake like crazy. If your ABS fails (which is likely if you continually depend on it), you'll probably end up skidding into a wall.

You say you like TC because it lets you 'hammer the gas better on exit'. What's happening is your rear brakes are activating as soon as you get on the gas to counter the spinning that your inducing. It might feel better, but your going slower. You should never hammer the gas, always feather it slowly. You can probably start adding gas earlier, but more lightly, then feeding in more throttle as you unwind the wheel, so your back to full throttle earlier without TC.

I don't mean to discourage your or attack what your doing. I used to do the same thing. Then when I started getting good enough to not need TC, I was already in the solo groups and was already REALLY fast, but I already learned a lot of bad habits. I ended up putting my X in a wall on a 120mph corner. People told me what I'm telling you and I didnt listen because its fun to lap (poorly driven) 911's After my accident, I re-learned to drive on a 110hp car with no abs, power steering, tc ,etc. And I'm lapping 911's again, but with only 110hp My lap times in a 1991 1.6L miata with over 200k miles on it are lower than they were in my evo back when I used to use TC.

Can you tell me a little more about your evo weight & power? What is your current suspension setup? Swaybar settings?

My abs activates very infrequently on the track, and when it has i'm really good at backing off and getting back on to controll its activation. Most of the time when it activates, its on some really bumpy pavement in braking zones. Perhaps my rebound is too stiff for the track? Don't know. The other time it normally activates is in braking zones where there elevation rises, then drops quickly. I have tried really hard at slamming the brakes to take full advantage of the extra grip, then backing down as the pavement slopes downwards to prevent abs kicking in, but it almost always does slightly or atleast chirps the tire as it skips. I didn't know ABS adds heat to the system, but i've found the abs in the X to be pretty freakin sweet, especially in some of these uneven pavement braking zones.

I'l be the first to admit that my driving skill needs tons of work. I have been told i have a lot of natural skill, i just need seat time to develop properly. I also feel i need good instruction too which i have found hard to come by. I understand my evo probably isn't the best driver training tool with its power, awd, and electronic wizardry, but i'm stuck with it lol. I can say in iracing, 90% of the time i completely despise the miata cup car because its suspension is terribly too soft for its power output. I much prefer the underpowered solstice, but i have yet to make it out of rookie leagues
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Old 10-16-2014, 08:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CooperS7777 View Post
Holy shit! I just watched all 10 minutes of that video, unreal. I often worry that I may have picked up some bad driving habits along the way but I certainly know I don't have any bad habits when it comes to safety.

Maybe Ill try a different set of pads the next go round, Ill likely also have these girodisc rotors skimmed true and see how they handle that. Can anyone suggest something similar/better than the ST43? I'm not concerned about noise, or street driving.

I believe a part of it (for me anyway) is the track. I spent a lot of time this season at Thompson and there are quite a few turns on the track where you going from at or above triple digits to 30-40 MPH, certainly not as smooth and flowing as the Glen or Limerock.
I have heard from evo owners that you should never turn the rotor. I don't know why, i'm just passing along what i've heard. Perhaps BLK can chime in.
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