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New brake cooling kit

15K views 65 replies 15 participants last post by  KickAss 
#1 ·
#2 ·
step 1: remove dust shield
step 2: use hole saw to drill 2.5" hole in shield
step 3: run 2.5" Sil-Duct SDH-250X12 from hole to front of car & secure with zipties
step 4: save $250 for about 2 minutes of additional effort than it would take to install this 'kit'

We have vented rotors. Cooling occurs by getting more air to flow THROUGH the rotor, not on top of the rotor. Taking a dremel to the edge of the vanes will do way more than directing air over the disc surface.

I wouldn't use a polyester-based hose if it were me. It punctures easily. For that price, they should be using a fiberglass-based hose. You may be better off using dryer vent ducting...
 
#23 · (Edited)
Boy you guys are tough... I don't think you could do it for $5, well maybe if you could find some dryer hose that fits.

The kit is designed to get air to the center of the rotor. The duct features a 2.5" 6061 tube that is cut with a double 45 deg. to direct air at the center of the rotor as well as on the spindle/wheel bearing itself.

Mounting them to the factory dust shield allows the retention of the shield to protect the ball joint dust covers from the heat of the rotors. We have found without protection they will have a tendency to melt. It also allows for a less expensive kit. If we had to make a full plate AND protect the dust boots it would cost more.

These cars use a LOT of hose. 12 feet total. We have to have the hose custom made in a 12 foot lengths for this kit, as they are only available from our manufacturer in 10' lengths normally. This would mean 4' of scap for us as we don't have use for 4' of 2.5" in another kit. Also this is not some cheap hose... It is standard Silflex racecar/aircraft grade high temp silicone. It is the biggest cost of the kit.

Contrary to popular belief the high temp ducting is never 100% silicone. It can't be... The particular product used in this kit is silicone coated fiberglass. So there is a typo on the site. I will correct it ASAP.

You can get the hose from HRP but you would spend over $235 retail just for the hose as you would need two (2) 10' lengths to fit the car...

We tried to offer a good value with the kit, and we think we did. Especially when you consider you are getting the complete kit for about $20 more than you would spend on just the hose.
 
#3 ·
If the way they inject air is covering just the inside surface of the rotor, cooling will be uneven and may actually cause more issues in the long run. Now, if the way it's designed is injecting air in the inside of the rotor, which what comment ^ me is saying, this should be quite efficient. Though, I wouldn't spend $255 for it. I would have it for $60 max.
 
#4 ·
the hose alone is 100 bucks. If you compare the aluminum sheild duct to the binary engineering one, this one costs around the same minus the hose. Difference being, this is 2.5 inches and the binary kit is 2.0 inches. I still need to look at my rotors to figure out if this shoots air on the rotor face or more on the inside
 
#24 · (Edited)
Nope this is not a joke. It is the best place to get the air. The remainder of the openings are used for coolers on the car of some sort. Oil cooler on one side and transmission cooler on the other side (for the MR anyway).

The fog light opening is a natural choice. It also does not require adapters, like we have to sell for other cars for light openings, as the hose fits perfectly.

It's a close up picture so it does not look perfect, but from a couple feet away, believe it or not, it actually looks pretty cool...

This actually brings up another issue, and that is the fact that with this car you are also fighting the hot air dumped into the wheel well from the other coolers. Before we installed this kit on the customer's car he could not run a full session without overheating the brakes. Even with high temp fluid.
 
#6 ·
I also love how the 'tig welded aluminum ducts' are bolted on to the OEM steel shield ;) They just tac welded an aluminum plate to what looks like some scrap tube, cut a hole, apparently with a pair of child's safety scissors, and slapped it together. The brakes on my lemons cars are done better than this, and we do it for under $25 =/

To be fair, the design idea is right, it just doesn't work well with our hubs. Without 2pc rotors, it does nothing. With 2pc, it does little since your not directing the air where it needs to go. You want to create high air pressure in the center where the hat meets the disc. Think of that as your intake. Unfortunately, the hub blocks most of the intake, so you gotta be clever about the shape and angle. Something like this



lots of good info here:
http://www.socalevo.net/threads/127917-TECH-ARTICLE-brake-rotor-engineering
 
#7 ·
So then how would you reccomend we actually implement a quality brake cooling solution?

I'm out of ideas.
 
#8 ·
Like in that picture. Here's some other good setups:







The hard part is that mitsubishi used the worlds biggest hub and knuckle setup, so there's way too much crap to work around:



The Brembos they gave us are huge and take up what little space is there. To do it right, get a more compact and powerful caliper (brakeman tornado, for example) and a 2pc rotor with decent hat size. Ditch the useless dust shield and see what you cant plumb in. It really lends itself well to using CF since you can mold it once, then easily make more with the mold. Trying to bad that complex geometry with sheet is really time consuming and expensive.
 
#9 ·
This is a winter project for me, though I'm working with a Stoptech BBK which only helps out slightly. I've already mocked up a few ideas but they were ok at best. My fellow designers/engineers and I have some other ideas we're going to work on over the winter that might prove to work a little better. We've been trying to look at it from a dyi viewpoint so that whatever we do can easily be replicated but I'm not going to guarantee it will end up that way.
 
#11 ·
BLK, would you reccomend i stray away from any cooling for the time being till i figure out something proper? I've got some entry level trackpads right now but have st-43's in the mail. Should i be worried if i run them without cooling?
 
#12 ·
If your not having problems with fade or glazing on street pads, I wouldn't be too worried. The pads you have now are probably fine up to around 700-800*F. ST43's are ok to around 1000*F. They're not a really aggressive pad. What kind of racing are you doing? If its just track days with 20-30 minute sessions, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Before solving a problem you don't yet have, get a good infrared thermometer that'll read over 1000*F. I have this one: http://www.amazon.com/Nubee®-Temperature-Non-contact-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B00CVHIJDK/

After a session, hop out and check our rotor temps. If your not getting near the glazing point for your pads, then there's nothing to worry about. If you are, you can always brake a little earlier to avoid glazing.

Another good option is to by some temperature indicating paint: http://www.raceshopper.com/temperature_paint.shtml

Basically put paint 3 little lines on the edge of your rotor: green, yellow, red. They turn white at different temperatures, so it acts like a sort of temp gauge.

A note about evo brakes and traction control: if you leave traction control on even 1 click, you will destroy your REAR pads. I know this counter-intuitive, but on track, the car is constantly using the rear brakes to try to keep the car flat. This isn't good :) I went through about 1/2 a set of pads that last guys a full season of time attack, in just 1 light track weekend when I left TC on 1 click in the rain!
 
#13 · (Edited)
what pads are you on?

I havn't logged brake temps yet, but i'll ad that to my list of things to monitor after a run including tire temp gradients and pressure. On my entry level track pads, if i push them for 4-5 turns in a row i'll get some fade and i usually end up blowing the corner in an offtrack excursion. My thoughts were that if i could get some cooling, i may be able to prevent the fade and be able to work on my braking more. Its kind of hard to develop skill when i can't push myself for more than 1-2 turns per lap.

I just purchased st43's and i'm still on street tires (MPSS). With the heat capacity of st43's, i may not need cooling to prevent fade, but i am worried about ruining the dust boots on the stock pads from excessive heat. Let me know if i'm getting concerned for no reason.

I have been running the traction control 1 click off because i feel my turn in is sharper and i can hammer the gas better on exit. So far i've got 2 track weekends on my entry level track pads + 4 auto-x & 10k daily miles. No probs yet beating on my car with TC 1 off. BUT... My new suspension setup i think is now calling for full off. I just installed a front sway & Perrin PSRS on top of my KW coils & rear sway, and with the front sway at full stiff and rear at med, i think the car performs better with the traction control full off. My next track session i think i'll turn the rear up to full stiff and play with TC again just to be sure.
 
#14 ·
I have a full brakeman kit (tornado f4 calipers, front 2pc procast rotors, 4.75" pads). The pad compounds I'm using are their #3 compound on the street (1200*f, 0.48 coef) and #84 on the track (1400*f, 0.56 coef). I don't have any ducting work on the evo, because its not needed.

If your getting fade (glazing - brake still feels firm, but you dont slow down as much), then your not using good enough pads. Cooling might help you get a bit deeper into a session with low-end pads, but you should really upgrade the pads! Look at it this way - of your gonna get your brakes over 1000*f, but the pads can only work up to 700*f, that extra air isn't going to make up the 300* difference. Ducting is a last resort, not a first. Highest cost, least impact.

When your running the highest temp pads you can justify and STILL glazing, then consider it. But before you get to that point, you'll have another problem: you'll boil your brake fluid (brake feels soft and doesn't clamp much). When you get to that point, you'll want to consider ducting (or a fluid flush if its just old/crappy).

Another thing to keep in mind is that your brakes can only work as hard as your tires. You SHOULD get the tires to lock up well before you brake hard enough to really heat up too much. Especially on street tires. Learning to do this with TC off (threshold braking) is one of the first advanced techniques you should learn on the track. I cant imagine you'd have issues with TC off. I'm able to threshold brake on Hoosier R6 racing slicks, which grip WAY harder and work the brakes way more and not overheat.

Traction control prevents you from learning this. When you brake too hard for your tires to deal with, it'll compensate by overheat your brakes (pads and fluid) with ABS. When you brake after a straight, do you feel the ABS vibrating? That's basically a motor that fully activates and releases your brake super fast. This is horrible for your brakes, and worst than that, it trains you to over-brake like crazy. If your ABS fails (which is likely if you continually depend on it), you'll probably end up skidding into a wall.

You say you like TC because it lets you 'hammer the gas better on exit'. What's happening is your rear brakes are activating as soon as you get on the gas to counter the spinning that your inducing. It might feel better, but your going slower. You should never hammer the gas, always feather it slowly. You can probably start adding gas earlier, but more lightly, then feeding in more throttle as you unwind the wheel, so your back to full throttle earlier without TC.

I don't mean to discourage your or attack what your doing. I used to do the same thing. Then when I started getting good enough to not need TC, I was already in the solo groups and was already REALLY fast, but I already learned a lot of bad habits. I ended up putting my X in a wall on a 120mph corner. People told me what I'm telling you and I didnt listen because its fun to lap (poorly driven) 911's ;) After my accident, I re-learned to drive on a 110hp car with no abs, power steering, tc ,etc. And I'm lapping 911's again, but with only 110hp ;) My lap times in a 1991 1.6L miata with over 200k miles on it are lower than they were in my evo back when I used to use TC.
 
#19 ·
Can you tell me a little more about your evo weight & power? What is your current suspension setup? Swaybar settings?

My abs activates very infrequently on the track, and when it has i'm really good at backing off and getting back on to controll its activation. Most of the time when it activates, its on some really bumpy pavement in braking zones. Perhaps my rebound is too stiff for the track? Don't know. The other time it normally activates is in braking zones where there elevation rises, then drops quickly. I have tried really hard at slamming the brakes to take full advantage of the extra grip, then backing down as the pavement slopes downwards to prevent abs kicking in, but it almost always does slightly or atleast chirps the tire as it skips. I didn't know ABS adds heat to the system, but i've found the abs in the X to be pretty freakin sweet, especially in some of these uneven pavement braking zones.

I'l be the first to admit that my driving skill needs tons of work. I have been told i have a lot of natural skill, i just need seat time to develop properly. I also feel i need good instruction too which i have found hard to come by. I understand my evo probably isn't the best driver training tool with its power, awd, and electronic wizardry, but i'm stuck with it lol. I can say in iracing, 90% of the time i completely despise the miata cup car because its suspension is terribly too soft for its power output. I much prefer the underpowered solstice, but i have yet to make it out of rookie leagues :)
 
#15 ·
Ive been looking at ducting for my X - and may make something up over the winter.

I dont think Im necessarily experiencing glazing as you put it blk - but I seem to kill rotors rather frequently (4-6 track days). After I killed my last set of stock rotors (stock rotors and ST-43s) I tried a set of cheap Centric rotors and they seemed to last about 3 days, then I went to a set of Girodisc's. They lasted the longest at about 6 days, but they seem to be vibrating pretty heavily after heating up (2-3 sessions into the day generally).

Any ideas/suggestions?
 
#17 ·
Wow, that's pretty harsh! I didn't stick with the stock brembos very long, so I can't really speak to that. But I've had the same set of rotors for probably a couple dozen track days in the evo, plus 5+ years of daily use, and they're still fine.

Its a combo of the rotor and pad. Some pads are harder on rotors than others. Some rotors aren't made as well as others. Just gotta find a combo that works.
 
#18 ·
Holy shit! I just watched all 10 minutes of that video, unreal. I often worry that I may have picked up some bad driving habits along the way but I certainly know I don't have any bad habits when it comes to safety.

Maybe Ill try a different set of pads the next go round, Ill likely also have these girodisc rotors skimmed true and see how they handle that. Can anyone suggest something similar/better than the ST43? I'm not concerned about noise, or street driving.

I believe a part of it (for me anyway) is the track. I spent a lot of time this season at Thompson and there are quite a few turns on the track where you going from at or above triple digits to 30-40 MPH, certainly not as smooth and flowing as the Glen or Limerock.
 
#20 ·
I have heard from evo owners that you should never turn the rotor. I don't know why, i'm just passing along what i've heard. Perhaps BLK can chime in.
 
#21 · (Edited)
If you are trying to design a good brake duct then it is in your best interest that you try to actually cool off the pads or blow the air into the caliper assembly. Unlike rotors which have vanes designed to help cool the rotor through convection cooling the calipers have no means of cooling and particularly the brake pads/ where they contact with the rotor is critical since you are trying to stay within a given temperature range for the pads to work efficiently. This isn't to say that ducting to the rotor is terrible, after all you are introducing colder air to the immediate area will help drop temps but not the most efficient use of that air, but atleast ducting to the center of the rotor would be a good alternative.


You can always increase the heat capacity of the rotors by going to bigger rotors, but this won't mean that your pads still won't fad under hard decel especially if you're not on street tires. Running on street tires will definitely be less taxing on your brakes since you are more tire limited your brakes don't have to do as much work because your tires will just lock up.

I thought I'd seen someone make a nice DIY brake duct that used the caliper bolts to mount and directed air into the top of the caliper. That setup looked pretty dialed!
 
#22 ·
HP: maybe 50-75lbs under stock weight, oem gsr structs with racecomp springs, whiteline bar on medium setting. Around 325whp. Yea, sounds like your on the right track. As long as your still learning, the car helping out isnt a bad thing. Just remember to dial it back a couple tenths once you get to the point where its getting in the way more than it helps :) iRacing is great help for that! it really forces you to learn discipline and focus. Yea, the rating system is super harsh

No one really turns rotors these days. Labor costs more than new rotors.

Cooper: Never done Thompson, but it was added to my race series for next season. Looking forward to giving it a shot!
 
#28 ·
The duct is designed at an angle to direct air to the center of the rotor specifically. That is always the goal with every kit we manufacture.

This is the best pic I could get from behind:



Of course you can also trim the dust shield as you wish to act as a baffle. In the case of this installation we wanted to maximize airflow. Also the rotor tends to act like a pump to draw incoming air through the center.

Front and AWD cars make it challenging to maximize airflow to the center of the rotor as a great deal of real-estate is used by the drivetrain.

This size rotor on a RWD car would easily accommodate a 3" duct.
 
#29 ·
I was hoping to see that exact view with the rotor attatched to the hub to see how much of the inner hat is subjected to direct flow. You mention a baffle.... that may be the only way to force the air into the hat vs onto the rotor. I guess our uprights really limit us on what's possible from a brake cooling perspective.
 
#32 ·
The spindle design itself is the biggest limiter. The center is very large to accommodate the half shaft/wheel bearing.

When I say baffle I mean you can trim the dust shield any way you wish to allow the air flow to suite your needs.

As shown on the site we have found it to be very effective. The customer ran it two full seasons of moderate HPDE use and went from having to cut sessions short due to braking issues to running full sessions. He also daily drives the car and has not taken the kit off to my knowledge...
 
#31 ·
Racing brake rotors are actually not desired for effective cooling. They allow the air directed to the center of the rotor to escape through the spokes of the rotor.

The new "hybrid" rotors are constrcted in a similar manner on the new C7 Corvette and GM actually ships the cars with plates to block off the openings and turn it into a more traditional "hat" when the car is on the track.



http://www.corvette7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319678
 
#34 ·
Sadly, we do not have enough support in the aftermarket for heat removal like we do for heat creation. I am glad there is now one more option for the former.

Still waiting for the magical manifold heat control system to make its appearance...:(
 
#38 · (Edited)
I also have their SS pistons. The seals couldn't hold up to track heat combined with tolerance issues. Multiple times I came out to the garage to find all the brake fluid drained out of the calipers. First time was simply due to cold weather (yes, really), second time was after a track event. Didn't bother after the third kit failed, I ordered the kit from Girodisc. At the very least, I've gotten pretty good at rebuilding Brembos.
 
#42 ·
That's what I did. In RB's defense, they did send out new kits at no charge after each subsequent failure however they still continued to fail.

I think we can take highgains experience and then add your last comment of "it seems the best way to 'tune' the brakes is by adjusting braking style" or something along those lines. Not saying RB's products aren't at fault, but there's probably a lot of factors playing in here.
The first place I looked was my driving, but after many ride alongs and observation by instructors and fellow racers it was determined that I wasn't doing anything drastic or noticeable enough to cause the issues I was having. Combine that with several other people experiencing the same exact issues and it's easy to do the math. RB made good monetarily but I'm still out all the lost time, effort, Motul to my garage floor/paddock spots, and the fact that tracking stopped being fun for a while.

All this points to the original topic of this thread: the Evo is a pig with heavily front biased braking and pretty much requires cooling once you start getting to the top HPDE ranks and above. The one thing that this kit doesn't address is routing the brake hose on the passenger side. AMS had it nailed with the mid pipe they used in their kit to get by the accessory belts and pulleys nice and tight. If someone had replicated that I would have bought it in a heartbeat.
 
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