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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
According to FedEx my clutch is waiting for me at the leasing office when I get home. As there's not much user info out there on the Carbonetics Twin I'll keep this updated as I go through the lengthy break in as well as compare it to my Exedy Stage II. I'll also update with my personal reasons why I chose this clutch.

And as to it being famous: It's the model for the pics on Jacks Transmissions' page. (Currently listed as the evo 8 and 9 clutch, but that's my clutch!).

Pics from the site, will take some myself when I get the clutch:





Clutch will be installed in a couple weeks. Transmission is currently on it's way to Jacks for the rebuild w/ center diff fix.

Also want to say thank you to Jack's for taking the time to answer my obnoxiously many questions and for the great prices.


PICS (I know I need something better then cell phone camera)

Clutch and fluids:


Clutch:


And transmission back from Jacks Transmissions:



Updated 3/01:

Picked up the car last night. First impression of the clutch feel and how it drives: WOW. Engagement is soo smooth, clutch pedal is significantly lighter then my Exedy Stage II. It's been too long for me to remember what stock felt like, but I don't think it's any heavier then stock. It's very light.

It's also an amazing combination between being able to start smoothly, and having crisp nice shifts. It still grabs plenty hard, but allows for a smooth start up. It's quite amazing. As I've only driven ~20miles on it and have 980 more to go in the break in, I'll have to update later what it feels like during performance driving. I do not and never will drag race the car though, so sorry for those interested in that aspect.

Noise
I feel this deserves it's own section as it is what everyone says the drawback to the clutch is. You can clearly hear the "clutch chatter" noise when depressing the clutch pedal. I was aware of this noised before I bought it, and frankly so far it doesn't bother me in the least bit. You can hear it, but it's not that loud.

Now, that isn't the only noise. This is still an ongoing "investigation," but it appears that you get a few more noises with this clutch that I was not expecting. We had the car back up on the lift last night and checking everything because of these noises. I'm waiting on replies and doing some more research, but both noises appear to be from the clutch and possibly normal?

1) In neutral with the clutch engaged, a very rapid "click" noise (seperate from and a little louder then the normal engine ticking noise) can be heard from the transmission area. Up on the lift we were able to confirm this is definitely from the clutch/transmission area. After talking with Jacks, he confirmed it was the clutch. This noise only occurs with the car in neutral and clutch engaged. Put it into gear or press the clutch pedal and no more noise. It also doesn't always happen, just sometimes. The transmission was vibrating quite significantly when it was making the noise.
UPDATE: I was unable to make the noise repeat today. I also spoke with ATS & Across who informed me that the noise sounded normal and should go away. So scratch this one of the list? We'll see with more time.

2) A "clunk" or "thud" that I still am trying to diagnose. This noise scared me when i first heard it. When rapidly applying gas (while already moving and in gear) so as to "shock" the drivetrain, you can hear a very loud and audible "clunk." From in the car this does sound like it's coming from the clutch area. It's also clearly audible when driving over bumps; even the little "lip" into my garage causes the noise. It doesn't matter if the car is in gear or not, clutch engaged or not. I thought something was loose, but we checked every bolt and the motor mounts and suspension and everything was on tight and securely.

I don't know for certain yet if this is another noise from the clutch, but as the clutch is the only piece that was changed on the car, I have to assume it is. I emailed ATS and Across about these and am waiting for a reply.

Videos of Noise #2

I recorded it when pulling into and out of the garage. This isn't a suspension noise as the same noise happens when giving it sudden gas on just a smooth paved road. It's 100% new since the clutch install, and louder then the videos makes it seem.

Also, this is a maybe 1" high little bump, this isn't a big or even very noticeable bump riding in the car!

http://youtu.be/atbV2DjjgJs

http://youtu.be/ihIPqmEv72M


UPDATE 3/02:

Noise #2 Fixed! Turned out to be a loose nut on the rear motor mount.

Also want to mention that ATS & Across called me back yesterday a few hours after I had emailed them. They were very helpful and discussed what could be possible causes. So good customer support from them the one time I dealt with them.

Now that that noise is fixed the car feels tight and runs beautifully. Now I can 100% say I LOVE this clutch. I guess will have to wait through the lengthy break-in period. But for driving around town it's both smoother then stock while being more aggressive and having more bite when you want. The control is phenomenal and the pedal feel is perfect. I couldn't be happier.

UPDATE 4/17:

I finally finished the 1k mile break in. (although, I have to admit there were a few times during break-in that I drove the car more aggressivelly then I was supposed to. Oh well, no ill effects soo far).

Why I chose this Clutch
I want to first go back and explain how I ended up choosing this clutch.

A little background:
-I bought the car brand new in march '08.
-Flashed AP stage 1 at 15k miles
-Replaced the clutch with an Exedy Stage 2 and ACD Streetlite Flywheel at ~25k miles.
-Installed TBE and flashed AP stage 2 at ~27k miles.
-CMC failed and replaced with Magnus + Evo IX cmc at ~31kmiles.

I bought the Exedy based off a couple days of research on the forums and a lot of guys at the time were upgrading and using the Exedy. I heard lots of positive feedback on it as a clutch, and seemed like something a bit more fun, a bit more bite, and would handle my end goals of ~350whp/wtq.

When I first had it installed I LOVED the Exedy as a clutch. Compared to stock the engagement and bite, it felt great. Made the car feel more like a race car. For the first year and ~5k miles this is how I felt about that clutch. However the car was not a daily driver, whenever I took it out I went out and enjoyed the ride.

Continued...
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
... continued from last post:
At ~29k miles on the car and ~5k miles on the Exedy Stage 2, the car became a daily driver again. I quickly grew more and more annoyed and frustrated with the Exedy. Trying to drive smoothly to work in the morning was almost impossible. Either rev the engine to over 2k rpms, or have the engagement be very rough and jerky. Trying to baby it and start up at a normal pace was impossible.

So when I started having clutch drag issues after 4 more thousand miles of daily driving on the Exedy, I was frustrated but also relieved. I hadn't planned on needing to replace the clutch for several more years, and had been saving to buy wheels/tires and coilovers. But I knew that I had a chance to go back and do it over again and do more research and find a better clutch. I was excited to acutally enjoy driving the car again. So I spent litterally 3 weeks researching and searching for the right clutch.

My Criteria for the new clutch
- Smoother engagement and better pedal feel for daily driving.
- Able to withstand my power goals (now ~380who/wtq)
- Able to withstand the abuse of racing. Auto-x and track days (I don't and have no interest in drag racing)
- Reliable. I did not want to worry about having to replace the clutch again after only 9k miles. I wanted it to last a while.

I was immediately drawn towards Twin Disc Clutches. I was under the impression from reading posts on this forum that a twin disc clutch would satisfy all my criteria. It would offer the holding capacity for the additional power, would be a smoother pedal engagement, and would last longer as there as more friction material and surfaces. But I was not going to make the same mistake I did last time and jump into a clutch purchase without digging deaper and doing more research.

First I contacted several venders on here, including MAP, Sean at DSG, and Jack's transmissions. All three were very helpfull and offered good knowledge and great suggestions.

The first thing I learned was that Twin Disc Clutches are NOT a simple solution to my clutch search as I had thought. Some have a very heavy pedal feel, they don't last any longer then single disc clutches, and that due to the aditional rotational mass of multiple clutch plates they can really wear on and harm your synchro's. However, I was told that the Carbonetics, due to it's lightweight carbon discs, would not be an issue with regards to additional wear on the synchros, and that it also doesn't have a heavy pedal feel.

So, needless to say I was very interested in the Carbonetics Twin. It was the only clutch so far that everyone had said would satisfy my needs. BUT it was also quite expensive, ~$2k.

So I sarted looking again at single disc clutches. At many different manufacturers and all the different clutch materials and designs. However, as much as I searched I couldn't find a single disc that I felt would satisfy my needs as well as the Carbonetics. As labor install on a clutch is already quite a hefty figure, I didn't want to "settle" for something and in another measly 9k miles find myself pissed I made the wrong choice that took away from the fun of the car.

The Evo is an expensive purchase and is my hobby, so I figured why go cheap on a clutch which plays such a vital role in the drivers experience. So I bit the bullet and kissed goodbye to a large portion of my new wheel/tires/coilovers budget (bye-bye coilovers) and bought the carbonetics.

The only criteria that the Carbonetics didn't satisfy, but that no clutch is garunteed to offer, is a garuntee that it will last longer. However, I hope I can, with time, share with the community how well the clutch holds up and how long it lasts.

Impressions after breakin and first auto-x event
I've now had a couple weeks to beat on the clutch and test it some, as well as the first time at the auto-x track this past weekend.

All I can say is I LOVE it still. Going back to my criteria:
- Smoother engagement and better pedal feel for daily driving. Yes.
The pedal is as light as with the stock clutch, and the engagement is beautiful. Yes you can get a tiny bit of jerk/chatter during engagement, but only a very tiny bit, nothing even on the same scale as the Exedy Stage 2. It's actually enough to put a smile on your face when it happens knowing that you have a beast of a clutch under the hood. It's also easy to avoid if you focus just a bit during start up.
- Able to withstand my power goals (now ~380who/wtq). Yes, it's rated for over 700 torque, so I'll be fine!
- Able to withstand the abuse of racing. Auto-x and track days (I don't and have no interest in drag racing) Yes, and very well.
- Reliable. I did not want to worry about having to replace the clutch again after only 9k miles. I wanted it to last a while. We will find out, but form the few other people using the clutch, the reports seem to indicate it has a respectable lifespan. Not to mention it is supposed to be easy/realtivelly cheap to rebuild as the carbon discs actually ware very litte.

Ok, so performance aspects of this clutch:
First, shifting gears is absoultely beautiful now. I do not know how much to attribute to the transmission rebuild by Jack's or to the lightweight clutch. High RPM shifts are amazing though, better then on the stock clutch or the Exedy with the Streetlite flywheel.

Second, The auto-x event had you start straight behind the timing boxes, so I had to launch the car(highlighted to grab drag people's attention as this is probably the only usefull part of my post to them). I was hesitant because i didn't want to launch the car on this clutch, but decided I had bought the clutch to be able to race on so I was going to use it. Having had experience launching on both the stock and the Exedy Stage 2, this clutch puts both those to shame. I'm probably better at launching the car now after having practice and experience on those clutches, but I was stunned by how well the Carbonetics clutch engaged on launches. This clutch, which was soo smooth during daily driving, would bite so hard when launching. Due to the large range of pedal motion, controlling that engagement was very easy. Rev to 4500, quickly release clutch till it's biting hard, let off the rest of the way appropriately as to keep the rpms in the sweet spot. The Carbonetics Twin clutch just grabbed. I was very impressed. I was also very quick off the line.

The auto-x course also had a pinpoint turn needing to be heal-toe'd down into first, as well as a straight at the end needing to be shifted up into 3rd. I abused the clutch, and it performed beautifully.

The Fine Print
I feel I must include this as I am still investigating 1 remaining noise. When the car is fully warmed, and I sit idling at 750 rpms for a bit of time, something in the transmission/clutch area starts vibrating at a resonance frequency. Using my foot to pull RPMS up to 1k stops the vibration, and I never hear the vibration elsewhere.

As the shop that installed the clutch didn't fully tighten the motor mounts, I plan on jacking the car up this weekend and testing every bolt I can find in and around the transmission to make sure it's tight. However, having spoken to ATS & Across as well as Jack's Transmissions, this isn't something wrong with the clutch as the noise occurs independant of wheter clutch is engaged or not, and does not vary with RPM level.

However, while there isn't anything wrong with the clutch, the clutch could be contributing to the noise. THIS IS THE FINE PRINT: (I'm quoting a reply from Jack at Jack's transmission, which is what I believe is the noise/problem)
The sound could be noise from engine crank shaft torsional whip. If it makes the sound at idle only and not when you rev the engine, or have the RPMs higher, then it’s normal. If it makes the noise all of the time at any RPM, then something is wrong. In any transmission, there is slack in the assembly and if the engine has some torsional vibrations at idle, the parts will chatter and make a noise as you describe. The clutch you have increases the torsioinal whip, and harmonics, from the crank, and also transfers that noise into the trans. Things like lighter flywheels, stiffer disk hubs, and no dampening springs in the disks will cause this type of noise, and your clutch has all of the things which would do this. I would say it is a small annoyance, but one which is typical for a vehicle with such parts in it.
I will post a video of the noise later tonight. Once I check all the bolts are secure, if I don't find a fix to the noise, I will simply have my tune adjusted to idle at 1k rpms and that will solve this problem.

video of the transmission vibration noise

Thanks for reading!
 

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Interested to hear what you think. If it doesn't take too much time to explain what happen to the Exedy Stage 2 you had?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Interested to hear what you think. If it doesn't take too much time to explain what happen to the Exedy Stage 2 you had?
Had the Exedy Stage 2 installed almost 2 years ago with ~26k miles on the car, along with a ACT Streetlite flywheel. Since then I have put 9k miles on the car, including a couple HPDEs and several auto-x events. No rev limiter launches, a couple from ~3500rpms.

After around 7k miles on the clutch the CMC failed, and so I replaced that with an Evo IX CMC using the Magnus adapter plate.

About 4 weeks ago I noticed that for no apparent reason it had all of a sudden gotten extremely notchy/grindy getting into gear. After speaking with Jacks Transmissions, daignosed that it was a Clutch Drag issue.

As such, the clutch had to be taken off the car to figure out the problem.

I don't know yet if it was installed improperly or a parts failure as clutch still hasn't been taken off. Exedy wasn't much help, just basically told me I was SOL as it has been more then 90 days; which is fair enough as that is their warranty on these clutches.

Anyway, as I was going to be paying to rip it out irregardless, I didn't want to put back in a used disk nor did I want to put back in the same clutch. The Exedy Stage II had a lot of bite and was great for racing, but for daily driving it was a PITA. It's possible my troubles with it as a DD clutch were because something was wrong or off about it; I'm still waiting to find that out.

That is why I began the hunt for a new clutch. Took me the better part of January doing research and talking to some truly helpful vendors on here to find the clutch that I was confident best fit my criteria.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Updated after first time driving on it. More info to come.

I am interested too. I have the Carbonetic Triple and I will leave it at that for now...
Do you have any experience with the "noises" I have described?
 

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No I have other noises. Different that you describe. I would say the biggest improvement you made what the Jacks rebuild.

I have my own issues with my triple that I suspect have to do with the trans as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You do have me curious about what your issues/opinion of the clutch is. But I'll just keep updating this as I figure more stuff out and get more time behind the wheel.
 

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I have a noise with the pedal depressed, I have been told by Carbonetic that it is normal. I can't describe it but it is rotational. I also have a Tilton CMC and I am not sure I am getting complete stroke out of it so I get lock out some times.
 

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I have a noise with the pedal depressed, I have been told by Carbonetic that it is normal. I can't describe it but it is rotational. I also have a Tilton CMC and I am not sure I am getting complete stroke out of it so I get lock out some times.
sounds like Clutch chatter or throw out bearing If I have to be general.

My stock evo had a shit ton of clutch chatter and dealer brushed me off. 27k miles later my PP completely failed. disc was fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

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It's not what I consider chatter. And the TB is fine. The TB does not live in the PP. t rides free on the input shaft. They actually use a modified Toyota bearing. I don't think my clutch is the issue I think it's hydraulic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
yup, that's normal. I have exact same noise. And it's what carbonetics calls "clutch chatter". Lord knows if I can explain exactly what causes it, but it's from the plates free spinning and colliding. As far as i can tell.
 

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Anyway, as I was going to be paying to rip it out irregardless, I didn't want to put back in a used disk nor did I want to put back in the same clutch. The Exedy Stage II had a lot of bite and was great for racing, but for daily driving it was a PITA. It's possible my troubles with it as a DD clutch were because something was wrong or off about it; I'm still waiting to find that out.
i'm new to stick shifts and all things related, so when you say it was terrible for DD is it because of the way it grabs or just a heavy pedal?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
i'm new to stick shifts and all things related, so when you say it was terrible for DD is it because of the way it grabs or just a heavy pedal?
Heavy pedal wasn't a problem. It wasn't that heavy. Shifts were nice, and I loved the bite.

I had several issues. And some of my complaints were gettting worse, not better. Leading me to think something was just off about the clutch. For instance, the engagement point was way up high in the pedal stroke, but sometimes the car would creep forward if i released the pedal just a tiny bit. That's odd.

Anyway, why I grew to hate it? Starting from stops when DDing. It had maybe 1/4" of pedal play where the "slip-zone" was. And that's fine because I got to know the feel of the clutch very well and never would stall it (well, on occassion when really not focusing at all). But what would happen was very jerky, rough starts. I tried and tried to find a way to not get these rough starts, but short of revviing it to 2500-3k rpms before slipping it, i couldn't find a way. Every freaking time it jerked I just got worried about what other damage I could possibly be doing to the drivetrain. So basically, everytime i stopped was just a headache when daily driving and made it not fun.

Again, my clutch might have just been f'd. I was having weird symptons that i haven't heard anyone else describe. Starting from a stop was a headache, backing up was even worse. Should have heard the godawful screeching noise it would make when trying to slip it and reverse.

i just spent $3k on a new clutch and instal that i should have had to do, but don't regret a dime of it cause it was a relief to be rid of the exedy. Clutch really can ruin the car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thats funny because it sounds nothing like chatter. I spoke with them about it and they said it was normal, so I just stopped paying attention to it.

Agree with you entirely, why i keep putting it in quotes. "clutch chatter".
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Added some videos of noise number 2.

From speaking with Jacks and ATS & Across it would seem that noise number 1 is normal and should go away. I was unable to get it to repeat tonight. So maybe that's taken care of
 
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