2-300rpm would be a good guess. I been thinking of doing a red with AMS/ERL 2.4 myself

 

Here is maps ef4 with a 2.4l. Ef4 would have about the same characteristics as a black.

http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70241

 

yea i was just looking at that spaz. From what im seeing on dyno results on both forums. People with a 2.0 91oct FP Black are making 29-30psi between 4300-4700rpm. Now of course altitude, temps, tuner all come into play. I think its safe to say i wont notice any change in lag going from a FP Red to Black with a different tuner and staying 2.0L

 

Totally agree. It's all about the tune.

 

Ok wtf is the difference between boring it out and stroking it out (haha i know). Dino sent me the price/parts list of boring it out to a 2.2L. If i go that route im sending the engine to him. However, MAP's version of a 2.2L is a 94mm Crankshaft, which is a stroker kit, correct? Do both methods have the same effect on spool and if so, which one makes more spool, or do they make the same?

 

The stroker would probably spool the turbo slightly faster, but the overbore will be better to rev out.

Or you could do both.

 

Nah, one or the other, im not made of money. Dino do you have the dyno graph of your car. When do you hit max boost? Also with going the stroker route, is it just the crankshaft and thats it to make it a 2.2? I can just keep stock size pistons and hone the cylinder walls?

 

I have some of 2.2L blacks I've built. The spool RPM varies greatly more on the gear you're doing the pull in and the RPM you start from. Don't forget that spool is a function of both RPM and time. When I do VDR pulls, I usually start them @ 3500RPM in 3rd gear, which on paper makes the car appear laggier than it is. If I started from 2500rpm, I'd gain at least 300rpm of spool (even though i would feel the lag for a longer time).

Anyway, long story short, in third gear with a black, you should expect full spool anywhere between 4100 and 4400rpm.

 

if you will be sticking with the stock frame turbos...my suggestion to you would be to go for the 2.4 (bore + stroker). It will be preference on which shop you want to build, but I personally went with ERL and haven't regretted it (for my 2.2 overbore)

The linked MAP 2.4 + EF4 chart is just plain ridiculous for a stock frame turbo! ....25psi at like 3700 is insane and would be fun as shit! Mad props to MAP for an awesome sleeper setup.

GL with your build and choices...hit me up if you have any questions regarding the build.

Edit: reason I say go for the 2.4 is b/c you can still rev to 8500rpm and the stock frame turbos peak at around this level....not to mention you get the spool benefits of going this route! :thumbup:

 

3700rpm on ethanol fuel... would like to see on 91 / 93 octane

Snakes if my motor ever went BOOM and ive thought about this i would go 2.2 but since mines a SST and from what ive read the SST does like going above 8000rpm id go for a 2.4L EF3 or maybe EFR. am sure ull be happy regardless

 

thx. If possible i want my engine built locally, just cuts down on shipping costs and the fact that shipping it is a ****. I would have to steal a pallet and bindings from work. Then somehow get the engine to the shipping company.

But just to make sure. Average spool time on 2.0L BB FP black is 28-30psi by ~4300rpm....if i went with the Manley 94mm crankshaft that makes my engine a 2.2L and will increase the spool about ~300rpm? I think that is the route i want to go. $1250 vs. $2500 for sleaves, pistons and labour. Now with the new crankshaft, tomei cams, supertech dual valve springs and supertech valves...i should be able to rev out to 8000rpm correct?

 

stroker 2.2 if i'm not mistaken is like 8500 as well. I got mine sleeved and I would always recommend to go that route if you are planning on maxxing out the turbo. There is a great thread on the difference b/n ERL and Darton sleeves. Darton is pretty popular across multiple platforms and the wait line when I was doing my engine was like a couple of months until they start (after they receive the engine).

 

can you go 94mm crankshaft on stock sleeves?

 

Sure, but the integrity of an aftermarket sleeve > the integrity of a stock sleeve.

 

I know it would be obviously smarter to go with aftermarket sleeves. But for 500hp is there really a need. MAP's shortblock kits are saying for anything less then 650hp stock sleeves are fine, anything more requires new sleeves. Would be nice to have 500hp and hit peak boost by 4000rpm.

 

10%

 

I think personally he will be happy with the black since it was my idea plus he wanted my output and I said go 2.2 L just don't blame me if shit goes wrong

 

If you can hav a flatter torque curve from 4k to 8k why not rev it if your building then engine unless ur just doing the bottom end and no cams/ headwork

 

I got tomei cams and going with supertech dual valve springs and supertech valves. I dont need to rev past 8000, thats why im not going to. Why risk blowing the engine up again...lol

 

if you only bore the block, reving the engine past 8k will not cause problems, as the rod:stroke ratio is the same. So what is good for a 2.0 is fine for a bored 2.2l

stroking the engine cause higher pistons speeds, as the piston is traveling a greater distance and therefore needs to move faster for the same cycle. which is why you would want to lower the redline.

basic on stroke, rod length etc.

http://www.hotrod.com/howto/69883_stroke_any_engine/

how much faster will it spool is easy for any given turbo, x displacement is required to spool for a certain rpm. if you increase displacement 10%, you relatively need the same percentage less to spool the turbo.

so if it takes a 2l engine 4k rpms to spool x psi
if you increase the displacement 25%, the new engine should spool the turbo 25% faster or @ 3k rpm, these are relative assumptions, assuming the only variable which changed is displacement.

 

Did you get the the tomei 270's?

 

build the block to compliment the cams

 

here is a very good article.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/bore-vs-stroke-vs-engine-behavior/28963/page1/

the main post is referencing buick v8's, but engines all start with the same basic principles.

 

I just dont want to shift m powerband over. Ill have no issues hiting 500hp without them so it makes no difference to me if they are tiny lol

 

for the guys that have the manley 94mm crankshaft, did you notice any difference in how it revs due to the weight? Oem crank is 35.8lbs and the Manley is 33lbs. I'm probably going to pick up a lightweight crank pulley to go along with it since i have a streetlite flywheel. All together that should be around 5lbs right off the crank.

 

the added stroke of the crank will be slowing the engine down as the piston must travel further, approx 3.5 mm per stroke. Even with the reduction of weight the engine will climb through the rpms at a similar rate to what you have now.

if you really want to get crazy you could just knife edge the factory crank which would help it climb rpm faster.

if you really wanted to get into extreme race car territory you could look into having your crank "butchered", the car will excelerate like a superbike, but the gas pedal becomes like an uzi, its on or its off, nothing in between

stay away from undampered crank pulleys, the last thing you want to do is dump a buncha money into the block and let harmonics destroy your bearings.

 

Read up on that light weight crank pulley. If your talking about the one from agency power, it sucks big balls. That will be a mistake that you won't want in your life. Ask Hollywood.

 

lol, fair enough. I always heard mixed feelings about them. I'll just stay away from them.

 

Snakes,

I have no experience with the Agency pulley but lots with a pulley/flywheel setup on my BMW M3/4.

Ran a Under drive pully early on and loved it, but all the chatter on the boards WAS NOT TO RUN ONE OF THESE WITH A LTW flywheel at the same time.

Reason? the crank pully on the E36M3 is a harmonic balancer and changing it out all by itself was ok, but changing the characteristics at both ends of the crank could be ugly...

When it was time to replace the clutch I went to a 8.5lb LTW flywheel but took the Power Pulley off.

YMMY,
HAZMAT

 

2.3L 98mm stroker. Revs to 8k easy and makes gobs of power everywhere.

baka Tuned and loving it.

Baka where my email?

 

AMS offers the manley crank in 88mm and 100mm. What do those equal out to? 2.1 and 2.4?

 

Thats for the Evo 8 & 9. The evo 10 manley crank is 94 mm

 

the manley 94mm crank shows on their website as 37#'s as well

edit: it appears the 33 lb cranks is because distributors are having them knife edged outside of manley before the cranks hit retail

 

It would be more interesting to buy a 4b10 77.4 mm crank, you could intern lighten and already extremely light crank, the r:s ratio from the destroker would allow for a huge powerband. Something ideal for a turbo like the gtx3576 or gtx3582. Car would run like an 80's turbo f1 car